Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I've seen a lot of discussions about missions being inappropriate for admirals but I've also seen a fair number of (IMHO fun) tasks that people were felt were beneath Captains. This post in particular highlighted some of this for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
Also, do you want to degrade the position of Captain even more? What the **** do we have ship councelors/XOs/logicist officers/whatever for if we need to do every single frecking thing on the ship by ourselves? This already ****es me off to no end (especially the recent FE mission "Of Bajor", where they made Vice Admirals running around and do ensign tasks).
You know...

Just stop for a minute and imagine this, if we could go back and influence development:

What if max level wasn't CAPTAIN but COMMANDER?

Save CAPTAIN for an expansion.

Being a very competent first officer, we could lead away teams and command ships in battle. It would justify how much we get our hands dirty. At the same time, there is the issue of "bridge officers ordering us around." Well, what if we had a Captain who was warranted in ordering us around?

Not only that but people want characters with personality while also wanting customizable BOs.

Well, what if everyone beneath us was customizable but our Captain was NON-customizable and had a scripted personality?

It's a fundamentally different philosophy but I think it would have made the game a HECK of a lot more fun. And honestly? I'd like to see this tested out on other factions. Maybe as the KDF gets expanded, IF that happens, you spend your first 20 levels as first officer. You still lead away teams. You still command the ship in battle. But I think it works better in some ways and opens up possibilities.

Like I say, ideally, levels 1-50 would have ended at Commander with Captain being held off for an expansion with new gameplay to support it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
04-09-2012, 12:08 PM
It's a different paradigm, certainly, and it would work on some levels.

There'd still be some elements that would break immersion, of course. In space battles, the First Officer isn't usually calling the shots. That could be overlooked by most people, I think.

A more fundamental issue is how the Player's skill levels affect ship combat, which is a bit less immersive game mechanic. (If I'm not the Captain, why do MY skills affect how well the warp drive works?) But frankly speaking, that whole system makes more sense in MMO terms than it ever did in IP terms so I would hope most people would also overlook that.

One of the hardest issues to overcome would be players who expect to be the Captain and would not be satisfied with the explanation of what a First Officer does.

Also, not a few missions would need their text rewritten for it to make sense. Especially and including the tutorial.

All in all, I'm not against the idea. Don't think it would ever get serious consideration, but it's a better idea than many for dealing with the whole Captain/Admiral thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
04-09-2012, 12:33 PM
To be honest? I think that's an awesome idea.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy some of the "mundane" tasks the game presents to me. But what really annoys me is that those tasks are presented without any context why exactly I have to deal with them personally. Very often I don't feel like a Star Trek Captain commanding a ship with a crew in the hundreds, but rather like a certain Star Wars smuggler flying some rusty pos of a freighter (and I must get my own hands dirty because my copilot needs to stay on the ship to prevent if from falling apart in orbit).

If the game presented an extended story arc along the lines of e.g. VOY:"Year of Hell" that'd be completely different, because by attrition of circumstances there is nobody left that could do those tasks. In those cases it would make sense that the Captains themselves get their hands dirty and scan frequency bands, tend for the wounded, repair consoles, and so on. But my personal lproud nail ("Of Bajor") doesn't, and it feels as if the 2500 crewmen aboard my Odyssey in orbit laugh at me while twiddling their thumbs.

In my opinion it's all a matter of context and whether it is reasonable/expected that a Starfleet captain would do a certain task in a given situation personally or delegate it to his crew. The whole "Vice Admiral as maximum rank" issue doesn't actually help either, since I'm the highest commanding officer around and yet still take orders from a LT or LCDR.

Actually, "Of Bajor" could have been completely awesome if it had allowed high ranking captains to take command of the operation and organize the mess (you know, kinda what Picard did in First Contact when the admiral's flag ship was destroyed by the Borg). Instead of having the player run around like a headless chicken, several NPCs would have reported issues to the player and asked him for orders. And the player would have been able to either deal with it personally (if he felt like it), or hand it over to one of his BOFFs (which would yield faster resolution and better results, but occupy that BOFF for the duration of the task), or let the normal crew deal with it (would take the longest and get the most average results).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
04-09-2012, 12:38 PM
We may do things that would usually fall to a first officer, but our authority too far exceeds the post to really fit.

We set the ship's uniform code (pretending the limitation of generic interior NPC uniforms), have full control over staffing decisions including the ability to dismiss anyone on the ship except ourselves, have substantial control over the ship's capabilities and loadout, we choose the ship's destinations and day to day objectives, and have final say in how those objectives are pursued. There was a time when all those things would fall to a ship's captain, though in IP terms some of that would even be over the captain's head. Our bridge officers only order us around in so far as they give us the information they have and offer their expert advice (i.e. their jobs). Ignoring them usually means a mission just doesn't get done, but you can ignore them - even so far as leaving a colony to the Borg because you were only stopping in the system to scan a few radiation anomalies and head on to the next one. In terms of lower officers, it's entirely possible to just grab work orders, rubber stamp the senior officer's recommendations, and send it off rather than hand pick crew for every task.

Even the menial jobs we have the option of doing aren't that far off of Picard putting the ship at risk to indulge his interest in a ancient ship from a lost civilization. It's not entirely unprecedented for the galaxy to be in chaos and the captain to just tell the galaxy to hang on for a week so they can go off and have a personal story arc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
04-09-2012, 01:19 PM
It would have been WoW (or STG) ih Trek clothing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
04-09-2012, 02:22 PM
One of the tings that really irritates me with the game is this: I'm an Admiral. So why is a freaking Lt. (Karbo) giving me orders to patrol the B'Tran cluster?

With certain missions, it makes sense, especially if you're replaying them or playing a Featured Episode with a higher-level character. But this is B'Tran for Pete's sake, currently a top tier zone. If Karbo were an attaché for a Fleet Admiral, it would be a different story (and highly unlikely that Fleet Admiral would have a such a low-ranking attaché). But his Commanding Officer is a Captain (Four of Ten), who still doesn't have enough rank to give my Admiral orders, regardless of if he / she belongs to Omega Force or any other military group.

My Admiral should only be taking orders from high-ranking Admirals, period. And that should be true for any tier. If my character is a Captain, he / she should be taking orders from at least a RALH. If he's a Commander, he should be taking orders form at least a Captain. If a Lieutenant started giving me orders as an Admiral, I'd have him scrubbing my lavatory with a 20th-century toothbrush and busted down to Ensign.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
04-09-2012, 02:28 PM
Because they dont want to clutter the UI contact list.

You rather have a list of missions without separation, without speaker ... also why people keep hammering with rank without understanding what command is, Sisko was for a long timea Commander so every single Captain that set foot on DS9 could automatic disregard his authority and issue orders to DS9 personal?

Of course not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
04-09-2012, 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
It would have been WoW (or STG) ih Trek clothing.
Howso? I'm suggesting the same gameplay, the same missions, etc.

You just get your missions from the Captain.

It's a very hands off Captain. He sends you on away missions. He has you command the ship in space.

But instead of getting your orders/missions from command, you get them from the Captain.

That way, when you gun down Romulans or the mercenaries on the Treasure Trading Station, you're doing it per your Captain's orders and you can lodge protests.

The plot induced stupidity gets passed off to him. He becomes a character who grows as you complete missions. He tells you where to go next, you have to execute his orders.

Then, finally, at the level cap, he gets removed from command/killed.

Same exact missions but instead of being forced to do things by command (since when do Captains rely on command to tell them where to go?) or get ordered by your BOs, your Captain gives the orders.

And the story of level 1 to 50 ends up being the story of how you take command from the Captain after a 50 level tour as first officer, running the ship in battle and leading away teams.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
04-09-2012, 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
Because they dont want to clutter the UI contact list.

You rather have a list of missions without separation, without speaker ... also why people keep hammering with rank without understanding what command is, Sisko was for a long timea Commander so every single Captain that set foot on DS9 could automatic disregard his authority and issue orders to DS9 personal?

Of course not.
I completely understand that it is possible to have people in certain billets even though they are a lower rank. The only thing I am asking is to increase the ranks of the current contacts to plausible levels. If Karbo were a Captain and an attaché to Four of Ten, a Vice Admiral, it would be entirely more plausible. More to the point, an Admiral would typically be in charge of a fleet anyhow, especially a fleet like Omega Force (especially if they wanted to emphasize the importance of a fleet holding the front lines against the Borg).

Giving a Commander a Captain billet and putting him in charge of a space station is certainly plausible. But telling me a Lieutenant would have an Admiral billet is implausible. Actually, it's pretty laughable that a junior officer would be billeted with that sort of responsibility. Starfleet would have to be down to a handful of ships to make that believable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
04-09-2012, 03:18 PM
Yeah, I stopped my in-game* rank at commander for precisely the reasons you mentioned. It just seemed to fit better.

I mean, Sisko was a commander when he was first introduced and had massive authority - then when he was made Ross' adjutant, Dax became the Defiant CO.













*title and uniform that is - stopping the actual rank would mean stopping playing. Shame all the npc's still call me admiral.
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