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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-09-2012, 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenor-Nyiad View Post
Do you know how easily abused this will be?

---------------

There shoud be no penalty at all in my books. I get diconnected sometimes, and so have other teammates in past STF's....so b/c of that it would count as a leaver penalty by itself. The whole STF structure has been bad sinse the begining, nothing should be update...the entire thing should be redone.


I don't see why the penalty's there to begin with, but like I said, some people are jerks and need a boot. People who leave voluntarily makes no sense to penalize to me.

And ya know what, you have no idea if it could be abused. Your assuming with no evidence. WoW had a good system imo. You could boot jerks, and replenish a team that's lost members. That's not really possible in STO
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-09-2012, 02:48 PM
After getting into an STF after the mission completion, and the only method of leaving it dropping a 1hr leave penalty on any other STF I might want to do instead... multiple times...

I have to say potentially undershooting the issue has a bit more merit to it then overshooting the problem up until such point in time as we can fine-tune the system to prevent such occurances, and even then, as other people have stated, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to have to bail. Getting smacked with an incredibly harsh penalty for that seems like a great way to lose customers.

EDIT: Also haven't had any real issues with people leaving anything but Ground STFs, and even in those, recovery was a very realistic option for the 4 people remaining and replacements were generally easy to come by. That could entirely just be luck, though with some of the groups I've had in Space Normals, I'm not entirely sure I'd call it luck.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-09-2012, 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adondria
I don't see why the penalty's there to begin with, but like I said, some people are jerks and need a boot. People who leave voluntarily makes no sense to penalize to me.

And ya know what, you have no idea if it could be abused. Your assuming with no evidence. WoW had a good system imo. You could boot jerks, and replenish a team that's lost members. That's not really possible in STO
You see it's "jerks." How will the system know who a "jerk" is? Is a jerk someone who messed up and then out of rage everyone kicks him or her? Is the "jerk" just a ranter? Is the "jerk" just someone who isn;t fast enough to be on your dream team? IS the "jerk" ...you get the idea.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-09-2012, 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenor-Nyiad View Post
You see it's "jerks." How will the system know who a "jerk" is? Is a jerk someone who messed up and then out of rage everyone kicks him or her? Is the "jerk" just a ranter? Is the "jerk" just someone who isn;t fast enough to be on your dream team? IS the "jerk" ...you get the idea.
Actually, a "jerk" is somebody who specifically goes AGAINST the best practices of successfully completing the STF after being told exactly what to do and how to do it. A "jerk" is essentially a griefer who is trying to make everyone's life miserable by doing the opposite of what is being directed of them to do. People who encounter these "jerks" want to rage-quit because they're frustrated with somebody who would do this.


Proposed FIX: Create a voting system so that after "X" many BAD votes from teammates in STF's in a set "Y" amount of time, that person is barred from the entire PvE queue (public and private). After they continue to do this type of behavior and even more votes occur, then their account will be suspended for a week. If even further, then their account will be suspended for a month. If even further, then 6 months. If even further, then a per-ma-ban on their account would be in order.

For instance, after 5 separate matches of 4/5 of the team all voting a particular person being a griefer, then they would barred from the queue for 24 hours. After coming back and continuing to being a jerk by having them being barred from the queue a second time, it constitutes a clear pattern of their behavior. After all, that's 40 different people voting the same person as a griefer. Getting 40 people to agree on one thing is next to impossible unless that one thing is incredibly obvious (i.e. the sky's blue). If 20 more people think that person is being a griefer, then the entire account should be banned for a week.

Essentially after many, many, many attempts to curb bad behavior, people should have the privileged of taking their ability to play the game away altogether. If you're not going to be making the community a better place for everyone, then you're not going to be part of the community.

Furthermore, if you're banned in game, then you should also be banned on the forums. Obviously, this voting system should only be a part of the PvE experience and NOT the PvP experience. You wouldn't ever want your enemies in a PvP match to vote negatively towards you based solely on the fact that they're on the other side than you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-09-2012, 03:33 PM
Sadly as much as I think there should be some sort of blacklist for idiots bringing shuttles into STFs or parking at the spawn and waiting for the loot bags, I have yet to see a system that isn't full of abuse potential.

I do think that if someone leaves the rest of the party should be able to "request replacement" from the queue or end the mission without taking the penalty.

Of course I also think that the devs need to get a little proactive and set up filters (unselectable of course) to prevent some stupid stuff from happening at all, little things like low tier level ships/shuttles.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-09-2012, 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pardigm
Actually, a "jerk" is somebody who specifically goes AGAINST the best practices of successfully completing the STF after being told exactly what to do and how to do it. A "jerk" is essentially a griefer who is trying to make everyone's life miserable by doing the opposite of what is being directed of them to do. People who encounter these "jerks" want to rage-quit because they're frustrated with somebody who would do this.


Proposed FIX: Create a voting system so that after "X" many BAD votes from teammates in STF's in a set "Y" amount of time, that person is barred from the entire PvE queue (public and private). After they continue to do this type of behavior and even more votes occur, then their account will be suspended for a week. If even further, then their account will be suspended for a month. If even further, then 6 months. If even further, then a per-ma-ban on their account would be in order.

For instance, after 5 separate matches of 4/5 of the team all voting a particular person being a griefer, then they would barred from the queue for 24 hours. After coming back and continuing to being a jerk by having them being barred from the queue a second time, it constitutes a clear pattern of their behavior. After all, that's 40 different people voting the same person as a griefer. Getting 40 people to agree on one thing is next to impossible unless that one thing is incredibly obvious (i.e. the sky's blue). If 20 more people think that person is being a griefer, then the entire account should be banned for a week.

Essentially after many, many, many attempts to curb bad behavior, people should have the privileged of taking their ability to play the game away altogether. If you're not going to be making the community a better place for everyone, then you're not going to be part of the community.

Furthermore, if you're banned in game, then you should also be banned on the forums. Obviously, this voting system should only be a part of the PvE experience and NOT the PvP experience. You wouldn't ever want your enemies in a PvP match to vote negatively towards you based solely on the fact that they're on the other side than you.
this will be abused. 4 greifers will queue together, and they will all vote that the Pug is a jerk to get him banned. Maybe after a player leaves a message "Did this player have a valid reason to leave" Yes no, if 100% of the team votes no there is a 2 hour penalty. And there has to be a minimum of 3 ppl in the team for this box to pop up. if u want someone banned, 5 reports for a player on the same thing will get looked at by a GM, i also think u shouldnt randomqueue with peole ur on ignore with. Maybe a message "someone on your ignore list is on this team, join anyway?"

And the option if 100% of the team wishes to end the STF they should be able to without penalty.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-09-2012, 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenor-Nyiad View Post
You see it's "jerks." How will the system know who a "jerk" is? Is a jerk someone who messed up and then out of rage everyone kicks him or her? Is the "jerk" just a ranter? Is the "jerk" just someone who isn;t fast enough to be on your dream team? IS the "jerk" ...you get the idea.
Looks like someone answered you ;p

A. I have the right to free association. If your being a d-bag, I don't have to play with you, and if 3 other members have the same feeling, I see no reason why us 4 should have to suffer with 1 trolling d-bag. We choose to not associate with said player by booting them off the team, and out of the mission.

B. Since the vote would require a majority opinion, its not a team leader dictatorship.

C. Your response leads me to believe maybe people may not want you on their team, so a move like this may directly effect you. Is that why your so worried about something like that? O.o
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-09-2012, 03:48 PM
This is a hard topic to discuss, especially now that we are seeing more and more non-English speaking player coming in to the game.

I was in a ground STF (Cure Elite) before the server went down today and we had one German and one French player, plus (one English speaking player that had never run this mission before), which by the looks of their actions had no idea what they needed to do.

What does one do in a situation like this? We (the 3 of us) were stuck with them constantly turning on the transformer after every failed attempt and with workers still left on the field.

With the mountain of workers and the turrets firing at everyone and seeing your team mates go down one by one, again and again from all the shooting and the rooting, it was like Hell on Vorn.

Well as you can all probably guess, we lost one due to frustration and the other guy that had never done it before, well he asked me why he just couldn’t explain how to do it.

I then began to put up my large wall of text explaining to him what needed to be done and what items that were needed to get the job done.

He was surprised of the amount of information I gave him. He thought that it could be explained in 2 or 3 sentences.

In the end he thanked me for the info and left.

Now I just sat and watched as the French and German players try has hard as they could to try and complete the mission on their own.

It was too sad to watch so I left.

And to this day, I wonder, did they ever complete the mission?

The world may never know.

In this case who should get the leaver penalty?

The first person that knew we were stuck in a no win situation and jumped ship.
Or the second person, after knowing what needed to be done now realizes that he is in a sinking ship.
Or maybe I for not staying after the first 2 had left.

How will the game know who to penalize?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-09-2012, 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenMirror
this will be abused. 4 greifers will queue together, and they will all vote that the Pug is a jerk to get him banned. Maybe after a player leaves a message "Did this player have a valid reason to leave" Yes no, if 100% of the team votes no there is a 2 hour penalty. And there has to be a minimum of 3 ppl in the team for this box to pop up. if u want someone banned, 5 reports for a player on the same thing will get looked at by a GM, i also think u shouldnt randomqueue with peole ur on ignore with. Maybe a message "someone on your ignore list is on this team, join anyway?"

And the option if 100% of the team wishes to end the STF they should be able to without penalty.
Any time you put any control, at all, in the hands of other players over whether someone is banned or otherwise inconvenienced, it will be abused. No matter what you do to attempt to curtail this behavior, it will happen anyway.

Even if there isn't any call for it (because the system is only set up to punish the worst offenders), the perception will be that it is being abused whether or not this is the case.

Case in point: You can get a 24hr chat ban in CO if 'enough' players report you for spamming (even if your only offense is disagreeing with someone once), and get a (0 point) infraction for it. It's fully player-centric, and it's being used to effectively silence people for no real reason (of the 'report X person for Y' sort, whether or not Y ever really happened).

Further, there's an entire system in League of Legends (the Tribunal) that's setup by the developers there specifically for the community to pardon/punish only the worst, habitual offenders in teams. They even state that it takes a habit of being reported (and even shows the worst 4-6 games by that person prior to them getting flagged to be sent for judgment), and people still don't get that not everyone ends up there. It also requires a significant amount more work to get set up, and any and all cases that get 'punished' (majority of 10 people voting to punish) still get reviewed to by someone in the GM department to make absolutely sure that person deserved it (96.05% of the people in the Tribunal fully deserve to be banned as of the last figure, but only ~4% or something of the actual game community ever ends up there). And people still claim they're unjustly banned, or that just one game is all it takes to get up to a 2-week ban (it's not).

Summary/TLDR: I don't think any player should be given any control whatsoever over the fate of what happens to other players, because the grand majority of people playing online games* are likely to abuse any and all privledges they're likely to get. Let's not change a system radically without being fully aware of exactly what the net consequences of it are.

(*DISCLAIMER: This is a generalization. If you are unaware of how these work, then be aware that attempting to apply anything at all relating to specific individuals or even small groups of individuals [ie: your friends, your fleet, people you know] doesn't really matter given the extremely broad stroke that this statement is made to take. If 60% of the people in the world are petty jerks, it doesn't matter or change the fact that the other 40% are nice people. The majority is still crap.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-09-2012, 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRQ
In the end he thanked me for the info and left.

Now I just sat and watched as the French and German players try has hard as they could to try and complete the mission on their own.

It was too sad to watch so I left.
This is exactly the thing I'm talking about. You both should be punished severely for leaving an active game.

Humans have spent millions of years learning how to communicate with one another and here, in one online game, you all are so anxious to throw your hands up and say: "its too hard, I want a different one" and leave your fellow teammates to suffer on their own. Where's your fighting spirit? So the odds aren't in your favor - did that ever stop Picard or Kirk or Janeway?

When I had that mission, the one that started this thread, I knew it wasn't going to be easy but I still made it happen. You have to be dynamic and you have to try NEW tactics. Giving up shouldn't be your first option and, if it is, then you should have to wait several hours before you go into another battle and let your teammates down.
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