Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
04-10-2012, 05:06 PM
No science abilities,
no science ship,
no science captain,
no more playing STO
no more purchases from C-Store

Simple as that
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
04-10-2012, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amuneli
I couldn't agree more. I challenge anyone to point out one reason to play science ships at all after this patch.
The Sol RSV is an achingly pretty ship?

OK, I'm struggling here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
04-10-2012, 05:16 PM
A few minutes ago me and some of my fleet mates run some other test with some interesting information.

All test were run on Space Arena at 2 km of distance.

My fleet mate (an Engineer Captain) was in a Odyssey Star Cruiser (the free one) with the Borg set and the MK XII MACO.
  • Shield energy: 80
  • Auxiliary energy:73

I am a Science Captain with a Nebula Class, and I use Borg set with Maco MK XII Shield.
  • Auxiliary energy: 125
  • Fully skilled Starship Flow Capacitors, Starship Graviton Generators, Starship Particle Generators, Starship Shield Emitters and Starship Shield Systems
  • I have 1 Very Rare Tractor Beam Duty officer and one Rare.
  • Blue MK XI particle generator console.

First test with him having 0 (cero) at Power Insulators and with out deflector.

-Charge particle III alone gets his shields from 11469 to 7461
-With the hole combo Tractor beam I (with Doff) + Tachyon Beam II + Charge Partricle III. Their shields went from 11469 to 2050 after 10 seconds.

Second test with him having 0 (cero) at Power Insulators and with the Borg deflector (+23 Starship Power Insulators).
-Charge particle III alone gets his shields from 11469 to 9709
-With the hole combo Tractor beam I (with Doff) + Tachyon Beam II + Charge Partricle III. Their shields went from 11469 to 6156 after 10 seconds.

Third test with him having 9 (nine) at Power Insulators and with the Borg deflector (+23 Starship Power Insulators).
-Charge particle III alone gets his shields from 11469 to 10695
-With the hole combo Tractor beam I (with Doff) + Tachyon Beam II + Charge Partricle III. Their shields went from 11469 to 10362 after 10 seconds.

Conclusions: in this test, is clear that all this is pretty much a mess.
In simple words:
  1. CPB III with out Borg deflector and with 0 (cero) on PI removes 4008 points of shield
  2. CPB III with Borg deflector and with 0 (cero) on PI removes 1760 points of shield
  3. CPB III with Borg deflector and with 9 (nine) on PI removes 774 points of shield
In even more simple words:
If we consider the point 1 as the 100% of the CPBIII, with only the Borg deflector, the power only function at 43% and with PI at the max with Borg set the power only function at 19%.
In even epic simple words: Borg deflector with +23 Starship Power Insulators is more important than a skilled PI at 9.

Personal opinion: It is clear that this is a complete chaos. Shield drains are not only useless against a completely skilled captains on Power Insulators, BUT also is near useless with against a ship that use one of the most popular deflectors in game! I stand with my previous opinion, this should not go live at all!

Sorry for bad English.
Thanks to Kharn, Sevak and Murnock for the help testing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
04-10-2012, 05:24 PM
Oh the irony...

I remember Season 1. Sci ships were very powerful, with SNB and VM completely shutting down any enemy. Sci BoPs were unstoppable (could handle a 1v3 with ease), and Sci ships were very popular (it was nice for me, as I was one of the few Sci/Scis in my fleet). Then, Feedback Pulse was OP. Science ships were also the main healers, like their ground counterparts.

Fast forward 2 years...

Sci ships have been severely weakened. Charged Particle Burst III taking down 800 shields? Seriously??? My Odyssey's MACO Mk XI shields are 10 times stronger, without the relevant skills and consoles. The only decent Commander skill is Photonic Shockwave III, which is actually still rather good. Not to mention that Power Insulators is a Tier 2 Science skill, meaning it costs little to put just 6 points into it.

However, with this patch, Sci captains will be popular for their SNB against RSP.

Speaking of RSP, why did this need to be buffed? In its current state, it does its job. It is supposed to heal shields under focused fire. However, anything more than 10 seconds is just silly
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
04-10-2012, 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikrit122 View Post
Oh the irony...

I remember Season 1. Sci ships were very powerful, with SNB and VM completely shutting down any enemy. Sci BoPs were unstoppable (could handle a 1v3 with ease), and Sci ships were very popular (it was nice for me, as I was one of the few Sci/Scis in my fleet). Then, Feedback Pulse was OP. Science ships were also the main healers, like their ground counterparts.

Fast forward 2 years...

Sci ships have been severely weakened. Charged Particle Burst III taking down 800 shields? Seriously??? My Odyssey's MACO Mk XI shields are 10 times stronger, without the relevant skills and consoles. The only decent Commander skill is Photonic Shockwave III, which is actually still rather good. Not to mention that Power Insulators is a Tier 2 Science skill, meaning it costs little to put just 6 points into it.

However, with this patch, Sci captains will be popular for their SNB against RSP.

Speaking of RSP, why did this need to be buffed? In its current state, it does its job. It is supposed to heal shields under focused fire. However, anything more than 10 seconds is just silly
I have read (but as far as I know it is unconfirmed) that SNB is periodically NOT clearing RSP on tribble.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
04-10-2012, 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stromgold View Post
I have read (but as far as I know it is unconfirmed) that SNB is periodically NOT clearing RSP on tribble.
If RSP got its duration doubled as test reports claim, then SNB failing to clear it is NOT acceptable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
04-10-2012, 10:10 PM
If you fully spec into one damage type, then when you come up against someone who's fully specced to counter it why shouldn't they be more immune to the point of cancellation?

Just means they're not not as strong in other areas as they've skilled/specced up just to counter that one thing. Just like you aren't strong in other areas as you have a narrow set of primary attack options.

In my opinion, if you spec into just one thing specifically (draining shields) and another specs to resist it why shouldn't they be able to (perhaps equally) resist your attacks?

Granted I don't PvP, but why not spec instead into particle, graviton, sensors or photonic skills/abilities? You can't tell me they all do nothing.

Just sounds like all you sci people want an "I win" skill/strat. I would've thought being versatile is one of sci's better traits.

/oh boy, puts on flak jacket
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
04-10-2012, 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amuneli
I challenge anyone to point out one reason to play science ships at all after this patch.
Because the nacelle pylons on the Intrepid do that awesomely canonical animation when you go to warp!

/sarcasm

Well, spring is here, so I guess it's almost time for another STO hiatus... gg Craptic!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
04-11-2012, 12:55 AM
Let me first say that I appreciate the design goal of having all the skills 'work' so to speak, and effectively resist things that it makes sense for them to resist. Lots of design space opens up once the skill system is properly integrated with everything. The magnitude of the effects however, is very much in need of tweaking. The buff to tractor beams is very good, I get tired of watching ships that aren't running any tractor-breaking abilities easily zoom away from me.

Quote:
If you fully spec into one damage type, then when you come up against someone who's fully specced to counter it why shouldn't they be more immune to the point of cancellation?
That isn't true as the game currently exists, nor should it be. Take, for example, a ship whoose captain has nine points in Hull Plating, Structural Integrity and Armor Reinforcements. By your logic, my escort should barely be able to scratch them, but that isn't the case due to the severe diminishing returns on those skills. There should be the same sort of diminishing returns on these skills as well, and there currently are not.

My main pvp toon is a sci/sci, and I'm not the least bit happy about these changes. As it currently stands, with the recent skill tree changes, most science bridge officer abilities have been nerfed into uselessness in pvp. Lets run down the list of offensive science abilities shall we?

Viral matrix: Not terribly effective right now, though I've seen dev chatter that this will change at some point. There's a reason that I laugh when I see someone running this skill in pvp. It simply isn't much of an inconvenience.

Energy Siphon: Not a direct offensive power, and the drain magnitude is not enough to cripple a target, even when heavily specced into it because it is easily resisted.

Charged Particle Burst: Currently a very effective shield-stripping ability, two or three science ships working in conjunction can strip the shields from most escorts that aren't running extends / resists, etc. That sounds very powerful, and it is. Take all that with a grain of salt however; I'm talking about two ships working in conjunction to take down a single unprepared target. Consider two escorts both hitting your shields with Beam Overload 3 at the same time; you're probably going to loose that shield facing and take significant hull damage as well. CPB is the only burst anti-shield that science ships have.

Tachyon Beam: Against Power Insulators, this skill is no longer worth running for anything but the turn rate debuff with the doff, and that is rather questionable as well.

Tyken's Rift: Again, not real affect upon a pvp environment; I've got three points in power insulators, and never notice enough of a drain to be more than a minor inconvenience.

Gravity Well: Anything with an engine can ignore this ability for all intents and purposes.

Photonic Shockwave: An excellent ability for doing kinetic damage against bare hull, stuns, breaking extends, etc. No complaints here, aside from the extremely non-linear scaling between PSW 1,2 & 3.

Tractor Beam Repulsors: Cute, situationally useful, and can deal appreciable damage in certain circumstances. It is still too hard to make useful to be put in a competitive pvp build I think.

Feedback Pulse: A primarily defensive ability: a good team will simply nuke this off or swap targets, negating it.

Scramble Sensors: with the recent introduction of 30-second confuse immunity after this ability, it can't be chained, and while useful to fight FaW-spam, it isn't an offensive power really, it is a support ability.

The most effective sci/sci build for pvp right now, and I would argue the only effective offensive setup, is the combination of CPB & PSW. All the other fun science abilities have been nerfed to uselessness by the skill tree changes, leading to a shocking lack of variety in competitive science builds. This is not a good thing. If CPB has its effectiveness cut by 50% to 75% depending on the opponents' skill tree, what are pvp science captains suppose to do if they want some sort of offense? Certainly not shoot their targets, with only six weapon slots.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
04-11-2012, 01:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i have a character that happens to have RSP3, and the tool tip says 15 seconds, with the 9 points in the skill. holy crap.
I am curious how the fact that RSP does not work any more against kinetic damage works out?
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