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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
04-12-2012, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilus1
Question, have you done any tests with just one launcher? Most people use only 1, and so it is usefull to know what difference PWD will have on just 1, with 2 or 3.

Also, was this with using something like HY or spread? The best way to test would be with either one of those on a spacebar macro, so that it goes off every 15 seconds like clockwork. The reason is that these abilities fire more torpedoes, and so they give a greater chance to proc the officers ability. If you are going to have 2 or 3 launchers anyway, you will have one of these abilities in any case, so you need to see how those abilities multiple torpedoes proc the duty officers and if that results in needing less duty officers to get near to 150 torps.

What I would like to see is the above, with 1, 2, and 3 of each type of torp, and with at least 2 purple offiicers. Since that probably isn't convenient, I would like to see what it is like at 1 torpedo launcher with whatever officers are available, and with two multiple torpedo abilities off of a macro so that they help to proc the duty officers.

Alternatly, I wuld like to know how you got these numbers. Where did you find a target that would last 300 seconds? How did you time it for exactly 300 seconds? How did you count how many torpedoes were fired exactly? Were any torpedo abilities used (which should change how many torpedoes where fired and how fast)? What parser program was used (I know and have two) ad is there something in it that allowed you to count torpedoes and determine 300 seconds?

Really, I am mainly trying to see if going from 1 to 2 torpedo luanchers is worth giving up another weapon, and what effect 2 or 3 purple torpedo officers will have on that. The problem so far is a lack of a way to consistantly test it.

I am also wondering if your Intrepid build might work on a kar'Fi carrier (probably not enough science slots).
Bloddy hell thats allot of questions, I suppose I better start answering them

I have not done the tests with only 1 Launchers, I was going to do 1P and 1Q, with 2 and 3 Doffs respectivly, but something came up. I will run these tests for you as requested.

No torpedo abilities were used, just standard fire, set to auto cast. It would make no difference if the abilities used were macrod of not, as its a buff that acts on the next torpedo fired. As long as you constantly have it on cooldown it would not matter.

150 Is only the maximum because of the global cooldown on the launchers (2 sseconds), theoretically Transphasic Rapid Reload would be maxed at 300/300 because they only have 1 seconds global cooldown, I am farming these as we speak as I want to run the tests on these. Though this will not be as cut and dry because the dps on the RRTP is about 66% of a Photon and would need to use 2pc Breen set to up the damage by 30%.

My target was a very friendly Cruiser buddy in a 1v1 PvP match, this allowed me to basically just auto cast at theem and not have to worry about other abilities taking up the global and screwing with the numbers.

I used one of the parsers to calculate the number of launchers, this parser also tells me how long each of the conbat situations last, just a simple task of '/combatlog 0' when the timer reached the 300 seconds mark.

Unfortunatly I can't test with more than 1 Purple PWO, as I had 2 killed on me last night (Yes 2 purple ones died!!!!!), so it will be the same format at the above, 1B/1P and 2B/1P.

I think I have answered everything, if not, please let me know, you asked ALLOT of questions,
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
04-12-2012, 11:49 PM
Don't know if this will factor in anything to this thread, but since the patch update from this morning, the Tetryon Glider ability has been nerfed a bit....

imo it was already pretty low to begin with, but now even moreso, making the Omega Force space set virtually useless
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
04-13-2012, 04:23 AM
Are you sure?
My Tetryon Glider after nerf do 48 damage per hit. Some calculations:
Dual Cannons/Turrets shoot 1.33 times/s on avarage
Dual Beams shoot 0.80 times/s on avarage

[avarage number of shoots per second = 1 / (DMG / DPS) ]

Tetryon Glider doing 48 Damage to all shield (192 damage total) do:
64 (256 to all shields) DPS per Turret/Dual Cannon
38 (153 to all shields) DPS per Dual Beam

I have 3 Turrets, 2 Dual Cannons and 1 Dual Beam, so total DPS given by tetryon Glider is:
64*2+64*3+38= 358 DPS to one shield

And it is 1433 total DPS vs all shields [and please note - if you are using abilities increasing number of shoots per attack, like cannon rapid fire, this value is even higher)

Stock Dual Heavy Cannon MK XII do 256 DPS (without modifiers).


Now please compare it with, for example, Jem Hadar set giving pity 7% damage increase to Polaron weapons...


Conclusion: Tetryon Glider is not useless. It is not even borderline op. It is op as hell, and I am not going to replace it with anything unless Cryptic make it as effective as other sets by either giving it damage cap of 15-20 or limiting its damage to one shield.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
04-13-2012, 04:55 AM
Personally, I find Tetryon to be underwhelming as a base weapon. They're great if you can get the weapon proc, but once the shields are down you're not going to see any real benefit from them unless they happen to get a sudden resurgence of shield power, so their added benefit is almost completely useless at that point.

However, with other weapon types you'll still get a chance to see that bonus proc regardless of if they have shields or not, which is where I find Tetryron Glider particularly useful. You get the benefit from whatever weapon you have, and some added shield damage when the Tetryon damage from the glider procs.

Antiproton has an expensive console because it's flat damage weaponry, which is very attractive to a lot of DPS who prefer to flat burn enemies. Stronger Crits more often, some might not call that as negligible as the benefit of Tetryon.

To be perfectly honest, I'd probably move to just about any weapon type but Tetryon. Keeping the glider is still very nice though, because while you're not focusing so directly on the Tetryron damage, you still do benefit from it by having it there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
04-13-2012, 05:08 AM
All 2.5% bonuses are negligible, Tetryons are just as useless as other stuff. Evcen antiproton bonus is negligible, 20% damage increase to criticals is not even 5% general DPS increase... I have three reasons to use tetryons:
- Damage consoles are very cheap
- People rarely use armor consoles against this weapon
- I like blue beams/projectiles
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
04-13-2012, 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
All 2.5% bonuses are negligible, Tetryons are just as useless as other stuff. Evcen antiproton bonus is negligible, 20% damage increase to criticals is not even 5% general DPS increase... I have three reasons to use tetryons:
- Damage consoles are very cheap
- People rarely use armor consoles against this weapon
- I like blue beams/projectiles
No, Antiprotons are decisively stronger than tetryon because AP affect both hull and shields, while tetryon procs are only useful while the target is shielded. Furthermore, AP damage scales up dramatically with increased critical hit rates provided by AP-Alpha, AP-Omega, Starship Energy Weapon Specialization, Borg Universal Assimilated Console, etc. Of course, you need a tactical captain to maximize antiproton damage.

I previously used full tetryon weapons and matching consoles, but after switching to antiproton weapons, the damage stats and kill counts at the end of multiple PVP matches showed me how much stronger AP was over Tetryon.

EDIT: Rare AP Mk XI Consoles are the same price as all other Mk XI consoles in the Dilithium Store (around 11k dilithium), so they're not that difficult to get. Each Elite STF nets 1100 Dilithium, so that's 10 elite STF's per console.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
04-13-2012, 11:39 AM
Even if you have 20% critical hit chance (and you probably don't), Antiprotons bonus give only extra 4% to DPS.
I actually have 3.5% critical chance - so replacing tetryons with Antiprotons will give me less then 1% general dps increase...

On the other hand I have relatively high level of Flow Capacitors, so Tetryons special ability do 292 damage to all shields (1168 damage total). Yes, it is only 2.5% chance, but my weapons (1 dual beam, 2 Dual Cannons, 3 turrets) do ~7.5 individual shoots per second total - So theoretical damage done by my useless tetryons ability is something like:

7.5*1168*0.025=218 extra DPS... (calculations are not correct since I am just aproximating probablility instead of calculating it, but error is below ~30%)

It is more then 1% given by antiprotons... Much more.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
04-13-2012, 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
Even if you have 20% critical hit chance (and you probably don't), Antiprotons bonus give only extra 4% to DPS.
I actually have 3.5% critical chance - so replacing tetryons with Antiprotons will give me less then 1% general dps increase...
3.5% is only your base critical hit rate. Assuming you are not a tactical captain, the borg universal console still grants +0.92% Critical Chance and +9.2% Critical Severity. If you're a tactical captain, AP-alpha3 also grants +All Damage Strength +0.3%, +Critical Chance: +0.02%, and +Critical Severity: +0.2%. Also, good purple AP weapons will pack +2% [CrtH] or even [CrtH]x2. DHC's also gain another +20% critical severity. Therefore, running the borg console with an AP DHC [CrtH][CrtD] gives you +3.852% extra DPS without modifiers at +60% total crit severity and 6.42 base critical hit rate. This does not even factor damage multipliers via AP Omega. Base critical hit rate and severity also increase with Starship Energy Weapon Specialization (I max this stat out).

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
On the other hand I have relatively high level of Flow Capacitors, so Tetryons special ability do 292 damage to all shields (1168 damage total). Yes, it is only 2.5% chance, but my weapons (1 dual beam, 2 Dual Cannons, 3 turrets) do ~7.5 individual shoots per second total - So theoretical damage done by my useless tetryons ability is something like:

7.5*1168*0.025=218 extra DPS... (calculations are not correct since I am just aproximating probablility instead of calculating it, but error is below ~30%)

It is more then 1% given by antiprotons... Much more.
That extra DPS mentioned above flat-lines to zero once shields are breached. Furthermore, they are not boosted by any damage multiplier abilties like AP Alpha, AP-Omega, Tactical Fleet, Tactical Team, etc. This is Tetryon's primary weakness.

On a related note, while I had 2 Omega Set items equipped on my Advanced Escort last night, the Tetryon Glider effect granted -35 shield drain per hit at 100% proc rate. This completely outperforms base Tetryon weapons by over 400% based on your numbers alone. Therefore, optimum damage config = AP Weapons + Tetryon Glider via 2 Omega set components if you have a Tactical Captain spec'd to maximize critical hit rates and severity.

More food for thought....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
04-13-2012, 02:56 PM
1. Difference is still negligible. Critical hit /severity bonuses from consoles/abilities/skills work with tetryon too, only difference is this 20% severity bonus. And it is not worth changing entire starship build, since I already have mk XII Tetryons and proper consoles.
2. Tetryon effects are useless once shields are down... right. But 95% of time in PvP I am fighting against shielded opponents, and once my opponent lose his shield, he is dead anyway - so main goal is taking his shield down as fast as possible. Therefore Tetryon effect is useful (but still negligible).
3. Tetryon effect is not boosted by damage multipliers, but is boosted by flow capacitors level. I have very high flow capacitors level. On the other hand Antiprotons give 0.2% dps increase per each 1% of critical hit chance. Both bonuses are negligible, even if Antiprotons are slightly better, difference is not worth changing weapons.
4. My tetryon glider after last nerf do -48 shield drain.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
04-13-2012, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
1. Difference is still negligible. Critical hit /severity bonuses from consoles/abilities/skills work with tetryon too, only difference is this 20% severity bonus. And it is not worth changing entire starship build, since I already have mk XII Tetryons and proper consoles.
Critical Hit, Severity, and multipliers do NOT boost tetryon's shield drain effect, only its base damage. This amounts to a DPS loss when compared to weapons like AP whose +20% Crit Severity bonus is directly increased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
2. Tetryon effects are useless once shields are down... right. But 95% of time in PvP I am fighting against shielded opponents, and once my opponent lose his shield, he is dead anyway - so main goal is taking his shield down as fast as possible. Therefore Tetryon effect is useful (but still negligible).
I'll probably agree here, but only because I drop high yield quantums through open shields when possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
3. Tetryon effect is not boosted by damage multipliers, but is boosted by flow capacitors level. I have very high flow capacitors level. On the other hand Antiprotons give 0.2% dps increase per each 1% of critical hit chance. Both bonuses are negligible, even if Antiprotons are slightly better, difference is not worth changing weapons.
Tetryon Shield Drain is also diminished by Power Insulators, and based on the last set of patch notes, power insulators seems to have gotten a boost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
4. My tetryon glider after last nerf do -48 shield drain.

If you want, I'll be happy to test my AP ship vs. your tetryon ship. This way we can compile hard numbers to test each weapon type's effectiveness. I'm also running Mk XII AP weapons on my ship, so it should be a reasonable test.
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