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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-18-2012, 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by landshark666
Actually I agree with your points insofar as they relate to the numbers; but during course of tweaking my builds I've tried both the Omega set XII in place of Maco XII as well as Photons versus Quantums - the combat log outputs combined with the gut feel of the build in combat has pushed me towards my original suggestion. May or may not be the same for others but overall it just feels more effective with that particular setup versus your suggestions, for me.
I'm not sure what to make of the above. Numbers don't lie, but using the Force as a non-Jedi or Sith is something else that I can't even comment on lol.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-18-2012, 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
I'm not sure what to make of the above. Numbers don't lie, but using the Force as a non-Jedi or Sith is something else that I can't even comment on lol.
Lol I know, I think it's more or less due to ALL the variables that can happen during the course of any given engagement i.e. different types, quantity of targets, some stationary, some moving, you name it that variable is in there somewhere.
I do think though that the 'initial' survivability of Maco shield gives me a bit more of a chance to actually finish off targets rather than just taking them down close to dead and then having to break away in order to let my shields recharge faster. At the same time, I find that being able to stay in the pocket longer gives me better opportunity to unleash yet another torpedo barrage which in turn lets me increase my overall damage output, etc., etc.
This game requires such a blend of number crunching combined with that 'seat of the pant's feel, probably why I enjoy it as you never really know what effect something will have until you try it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-18-2012, 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by landshark666
Lol I know, I think it's more or less due to ALL the variables that can happen during the course of any given engagement i.e. different types, quantity of targets, some stationary, some moving, you name it that variable is in there somewhere.
I do think though that the 'initial' survivability of Maco shield gives me a bit more of a chance to actually finish off targets rather than just taking them down close to dead and then having to break away in order to let my shields recharge faster. At the same time, I find that being able to stay in the pocket longer gives me better opportunity to unleash yet another torpedo barrage which in turn lets me increase my overall damage output, etc., etc.
This game requires such a blend of number crunching combined with that 'seat of the pant's feel, probably why I enjoy it as you never really know what effect something will have until you try it.
True, playstyle does affect what gear each captain should go with. I tend to maintain full speed at all times to maximize defense, so aft torpedoes and a forward beam array (instead of a DBB) both work well for my build.

Elite Borg Spheres tend to have steady damage output, while Tactical Cubes just have monstrously high damage, especially when they start lobbing plasma torpedoes. MACO is better at surviving the tac-cube's burst damage but doesn't do well over a long fight. Omega slightly lower shield cap but high recharge rate makes it ideal for staying in thick firefights, but its resists are lower when compared to MACO. Both shields are good, but neither will save you from an agro'd tactical cube with full weapon damage numbers.

For PVP, MACO is ideal since this environment favors heavy burst damage. For STF's or 1-1 duels, Omega's higher shield recharge rate seems more worth while.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-18-2012, 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Also, if you are going for best kinetic damage output, try giving photon torpedoes a shot. They deal 10% less damage than quantums (3k vs. 3.3k) but fire 20% faster, resulting in better sustained damage output, even after torp-spread and high-yield are factored in. Quantums still have better burst damage when used with torp-spread and HYT, but photons give you more total sustained total kinetic damage.
Do you have any numbers that show how much better at burst and how much better at sustained DPS each is?

I've tried a few DPS missions in the foundry, but the cube in the mission dies too fast to really get a decent reading over time.

I tend to stick with quantums over photons, I'm not convinced the extra sustained DPS of photons is worth it after factoring in 3x Purple PWOs - but I have no numbers to prove one or the other is correct.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
MACO is better at surviving the tac-cube's burst damage but doesn't do well over a long fight. Omega slightly lower shield cap but high recharge rate makes it ideal for staying in thick firefights, but its resists are lower when compared to MACO. Both shields are good, but neither will save you from an agro'd tactical cube with full weapon damage numbers.
Shouldn't the 10% all energy bring the cap of MACO effectively even higher if not actually higher?

I also find the lower bleed through number to be invaluable, most escorts have 3-4 shield heal powers but usually only 1 hull heal. Cutting down on the amount of hull healing I require usually means I can stay engaged with an elite tac cube for longer periods than I was able to with the Omega shield.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-18-2012, 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
Do you have any numbers that show how much better at burst and how much better at sustained DPS each is?

I've tried a few DPS missions in the foundry, but the cube in the mission dies too fast to really get a decent reading over time.

I tend to stick with quantums over photons, I'm not convinced the extra sustained DPS of photons is worth it after factoring in 3x Purple PWOs - but I have no numbers to prove one or the other is correct.
Unfortunately no, I can only go by numeric analysis and observation. You do bring up a good point with DOFF's reducing recharge times, but all things being equal, those torpedo DOFF's can apply their bonuses to any torp since they trigger per shot. Since Photons have faster base fire rates, they will get more opportunities to get the torpedo cooldown reduction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
Shouldn't the 10% all energy bring the cap of MACO effectively even higher if not actually higher?

I also find the lower bleed through number to be invaluable, most escorts have 3-4 shield heal powers but usually only 1 hull heal. Cutting down on the amount of hull healing I require usually means I can stay engaged with an elite tac cube for longer periods than I was able to with the Omega shield.
I only run Hazard Emitters for a hull heal, 2 EPtS's in non-stop rotation, and Sci-team to maintain shields. I find it easier to survive sustained combat with Omega's while using a run-and-gun escort. I'm guessing that MACO's probably work better in cruisers given all of their engineer based shield recharge abilities. I will try using MACO again to give it a more thorough review.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-18-2012, 11:56 PM
Another quick update: I tried a few DC and DHC lone cannon tests, but unfortunately tetryon glider is not being displayed as a separate readout in combat logs. As a result, there is no way to confirm or deny proc rates being based per hit or per firing cycle from a standard STO client. However, I did notice something interesting: DC's have a recharge of 1 sec but a weapon firing time of 2 seconds. DHC's have a 1 second weapon discharge time but 2 seconds recharge time. This puts both at matched sets of 3 seconds per full firing cycle. Also, each shot did occasionally critical.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-19-2012, 12:43 AM
Number of shoots per second:
1/(volleydamage/dps)

No matter how exactly DC/DHC work, this equation clearly show DC have 2x RoF od DHC.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-19-2012, 01:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
Number of shoots per second:
1/(volleydamage/dps)

No matter how exactly DC/DHC work, this equation clearly show DC have 2x RoF od DHC.
The above is already known. The question is whether or not procs activate per attack cycle or per hit. Casual observation leads me to believe it's per attack cycle, but I'm looking for empirical proof via screen shot or Dev post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-19-2012, 01:37 AM
we can test it, if you want. "observations" are meaningless, measurement/calculation is only option. [proposed test: 640 single disruptor beam array hits. If ability triggers/reset timer ~16 times, then activation count "per hit", if it triggers ~4 times, then it is probably "per volley"]

Anyway, if it is volley-based, then these 2.5% abilities on, for example, beams, will activate once per 2.5 minutes... It mean you basically can destroy 2 cubes in a row, without single activation of special ability.

2.5% per shoot is far more reasonable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-19-2012, 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathray38
we can test it, if you want. "observations" are meaningless, measurement/calculation is only option. [proposed test: 640 single disruptor beam array hits. If ability triggers/reset timer ~16 times, then activation count "per hit", if it triggers ~4 times, then it is probably "per volley"]

Anyway, if it is volley-based, then these 2.5% abilities on, for example, beams, will activate once per 2.5 minutes... It mean you basically can destroy 2 cubes in a row, without single activation of special ability.

2.5% per shoot is far more reasonable.
Actually, experimental results are nothing more than recorded observations. However, your proposed test sounds reasonable, but if you want to finish the test sooner, use phasers since distruptor breaches last 15 seconds per proc. It's 1:15AM here, so I'll have to run this test tomorrow in about 16 hours unless you can find another volunteer.

Even when using phasers quad phaser cannons with CRF2 or 3, phaser subsystem disruption rarely ever happens. At 2.5% x16+ shots per second, you should be seeing near-constant system disables, but since this does not happen, proc-triggers-per-hit just doesn't line up with the known numbers.
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