Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
04-24-2012, 03:58 PM
just saw the stoked, seems like only good news. i mean pvp cant get worse and more neglected, its been at 0 for 2 years. i have to agree about the vault and defera events, i haven't played ether because 1 its lol pve and 2 i have too really be in the mood or have nothing else to do to play anything pve. those time slots have never matched up with a time i reluctantly sort of felt like pveing.

i would pve, if the npcs weren't so terrible, they ruin it. ive posted at length how to fix them, i'll not post them yet again in this post
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
04-24-2012, 07:34 PM
The fact they have put zero resources into PvP aside, I'm concerned about how they keep bringing up statistics to justify their lack of investment when it's a crap product. If I do crappy work, I don't expect people to be interested in it, let alone for me to be rewarded for it. I also remember what this game was like at launch, and to say there's no market for a Space MMO w/quality PvP in its game, Trek or no Trek, is complete b.s.

Further, given all the afker dilitihium farmers in pvp and all the other ways BOTs can be used to farm dilithium in this game, then how do they know which is which? It's not like there's anything particularly complicated in this game preventing bots from farming dummy characters/accounts all day long. I'm all for PvP end game being addressed, but keep the b.s. out of it. If you have a crappy product most people won't invest in it. Please stop using this excuse.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
04-24-2012, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by mancom
Well, there was Snix. And when you compare the quality of the S2 ability revamp to the disaster that was the S5 skill tree revamp, you'll have to admit that this was a fine piece of work.
I tend to agree, though in retrospect, there was still some design work that may have been non-ideal. By which I mean the entire approach to the design, the methodology and the goals.

It reminds me of Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition vs Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition.

D&D Design and Development
The D&D 3 team tried to create formulas that "explained everything". How do we get an attack bonus, what bonuses grant ability scores. They tried to streamline everything. THat was a commendable goal after the "mess" of earlier edition. They had tables, formulaes and all that.

But what they lacked was the big picture. How it all worked together, what the final numbers could be. They set the game up like a simulation, they didn't put in design work to create a big picture that also would make sense. The result lead to a lot of emergent gameplay issues. The "Christmas Tree" of mandatory magic items, cheap magical healing via item creation that made long-term hit point resource management irrelevant, CoDzillas and many things like that

In D&D 4, the design team went further. It didn't just make the math on how every value can be derived. They figured out sensible numbers the game needed to have for good gameplay and balance. They had the big picture on how it all fit together. I don't think D&D 4 could have existed without the preceding D&D 3, but D&D 4 definitile went further. If all goes well, D&D 5 will go another step, and "unshackle" some of the harsh rules of D&D 4 to give more freedom - but based on the experience of D&D 4, doing it in ways without leading a newly broken game.

Back to STO
Snix Season 2 revamp was IMO the 3E design phase. Especially the entire cooldown system was an attempt to classify and order the powers in categories. It gave the design more clarity. But I don't think it already had the big picture in mind. Maybe I am underestimating snix here, but I don't think he expected at that point how important the rotation of Emergency Power to Shields would become.
He created the STO equivalent of base attack bonus by level and saving throw bonus by level, but not the average success chance or damage figures.

Unfortunately, STO didn't really get in the 4E design phase yet. There are no clear target numbers for stuff like "average DPS" or "average healing", and "max burst potential". And the old design was even broken with console powers (which in D&D 3E may have been the equivalent of people spending skill points to get new spell slots or attack bonuses thanks to a new supplement).

At this point, I have to compare to TOR - they have the big picture. They have the target numbers the different classes can achieve and their balancing focuses on identifying the outliers and bringing them back in line. (Which isn't to say they are perfect and I still see the forums are full of whining, but that's an MMO standard.)


TL;DR: For good gameplay and balance, It is not enough to have an idea of how to derive numbers, it's important to figure out which numbers you want to derive to.

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