Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 141
04-27-2012, 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
If this works out, many other Energy Drain powers may see their functionality changed in similar ways.
The difference is that siphon is overpowered, other drains aren't. If anything they are now far, far too weak.

Not being able to take subsystems offline would be a negative change. If you invest enough into drains then subsystem disable should be the ultimate goal. With massive diminishing returns people aren't going to try to invest very much into draining builds. Maybe not at all, with the possible exception of power siphons, which are likely still going to be overpowered unless the rate one can launch them is also lowered (far too high with doffs)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 142
04-27-2012, 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohNyNorMuS View Post
I'm curious as to why this power is being worked on. No one has fixed gravity well since you last poo poo'd it. Maybe you should fix what you broke last time you felt like messing with things before you start breaking ... errr "fixing" other things hmmmmmmm?
gravity well isnt an i win button right now, toning down i win buttons is more urgent then tweaking a crummy power.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 143
04-27-2012, 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dribyelruh View Post
The difference is that siphon is overpowered, other drains aren't. If anything they are now far, far too weak.

Not being able to take subsystems offline would be a negative change. If you invest enough into drains then subsystem disable should be the ultimate goal. With massive diminishing returns people aren't going to try to invest very much into draining builds. Maybe not at all, with the possible exception of power siphons, which are likely still going to be overpowered unless the rate one can launch them is also lowered (far too high with doffs)
While subsystem disables are kinda "flashy" - you don't really need to take out an entire subsystem to cripple someone. Again - just by reducing someone's weapon power to something like 50, he's neutered. Maybe you still need to work to kill him, but that's okay IMO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 144
04-27-2012, 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
While subsystem disables are kinda "flashy" - you don't really need to take out an entire subsystem to cripple someone. Again - just by reducing someone's weapon power to something like 50, he's neutered. Maybe you still need to work to kill him, but that's okay IMO.
Exactly no drains should never allow a system to hit Zero... I don't really care how many points and how many skill you invested into it. Zero Power shouldn't be an option, Outside of phaser and subsystem procs.

I sort of like the idea Cryptic is toying with... what I would like to see as a result...

Dampeners getting Fixed something like 9 points = 30% resist... this corrects issues with many of the drain (shield and power) skills. (same for all the other resists and things like GW become useful again)

ALL Drain skills (AND Items Ie... Crapiton Assimilators... and siphen pods) shield and power being resisted by Dampeners (with its max 30% number)

Sub System Targeting Skills being boosted Back to Pre Pre Pre nerf numbers... yes Version 3 Should report numbers in the 70-90 range.... However be ruled by the new Global Drain Reduction Mechanic. (This would make those skills viable again... but NOT allow say a Karfi to Run Target Shields 3 Siphen 3 and Drones to face role in easy mode)

Siphen isn't a bad skill at all dribyelruh... does it drain a lot from a target no... does it proved the user with a crap ton of power... yes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 145
04-27-2012, 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
While subsystem disables are kinda "flashy" - you don't really need to take out an entire subsystem to cripple someone. Again - just by reducing someone's weapon power to something like 50, he's neutered. Maybe you still need to work to kill him, but that's okay IMO.
Weapons power is the obvious exception. Drop shields to 50 power and you haven't done nearly as much. With massive diminishing returns the lower power gets, you're going to end up with the *** backwards situation where a very highly spec'd in target subsystems will work fine against a target with high power in a subsystem, and do barely anything when a player is running very low power in a subsystem.

That is completely backwards to how things should be.

If you decide to run low shield power you should be vulnerable to shield drains. It's the obvious consequence. If you get hit with multiple drains, you may need to redistribute more power to shields so you don't get disabled. The opposite is bad design, care bear logic, and exactly backwards thinking.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 146
04-27-2012, 04:21 PM
I'd like to see 30 power as the max power left after drain from drain abilities, but TSSx be able to drop the power below that. I've been hit by the Ferengi weapon & it seems like a fair end point.

Also, may have to raise the buffer cieling of all powers to 150 or so keeping 125 as max for calculation of other effects. The balance for the effects of the drain/resist abilities should be around 200 max SP instead of 99. With consoles/deflectors/SPs it's too easy to get to 99.

Please don't compare Phasers to drains, VM, or even TSSx abilities and any power to a subsystem is much better then it being shut down altogether. VM/TSSx abilities have fairly long cooldowns and require a Boff skilll and specific weapon type to use, allowing time for their hard counters to be cycled. There is no immunity after clearing a phaser proc, so using Eng team, battery, EpTx doesn't guarantee you won't lose a system again.

The delay time of a player seeing a system drop and responding means volleys of hits are arriving w/no shields, zero defense, more time in attackers' damage sweet spot, and/or no ability to respoistion/leave. Even if it's only for a second under ff it's enough time to get blown up, and if you do survive you're still getting systems shut down as soon as you've brought them up. All this w/o specing, no consoles, no boff slots, no cooldown, no other significant investment of any kind.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 147
04-27-2012, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
I believe you're comparing apples to things that vaguely resemble something similar to apples when you squint really hard and use your imagination.

- Siphon Drones drain energy 100% of the time.
- Phaser Procs knock one of four subsystems offline for a few seconds, 2.5% of the time.

Surely you can recognize the vast distance that separates these two mechanics? If not, then we need to examine how these abilities' effects are messaged to our players.

Taking a subsystem offline is not "the whole point" of the Siphon Drones' ability. The point is to reduce the enemy's overall effectiveness in multiple areas, not outright cripple and disable them.

Another thing to take note of, is that the change proposed above should not have an impact on stacking multiple drains from different sources. For example, using Energy Siphon, Siphon Drones, Aceton Assimilators, Plasmodic Leach and Polaron Procs all in tandem. While the mechanics of each individual drain may end up changing, the rewards you may reap by stacking them are likely to remain quite substantial.
So in other words you guys are still drunkenly delusional about phasers being the second best way to "drain" a boat (next to five second siphon drones) dry and that their proc is "balanced"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 148
04-27-2012, 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavairo
So in other words you guys are still drunkenly delusional about phasers being the second best way to "drain" a boat (next to five second siphon drones) dry and that their proc is "balanced"
theres a 30 second scramble resist, there proboly needs to be a 30 second subsystem disable resist. actually those should be lowered, 30 is to much, they cant be tactically used if theres a 30 second windows of immunity, they are completely nonviable as something that can lead to a kill, they just become slightly annoying.

ive been running into subsystem disables chained lately and its become as annoying as the old lolscramble days, even with 6 in repair. 2 sci ships or even odysseys with subsystem targeting, phasers and 2xVM can easily keep 2-3 subsystems disabled at once at all times.

a 5 second subsystem immunity after a disable wears off sounds reasonable, that can still allow for multiple subsystems disabled at once with a slight breather between shutdowns so the victim can actually react.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 149
04-27-2012, 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
We are currently testing a mechanic change for Siphon Drones that should prevent them from ever taking a subsystem completely offline. Instead, they will incrementally drain a smaller and smaller percentage of your remaining power, as your power dips lower. If their target activates an ability that raises a subsystem's energy, the Siphon's effectiveness will increase to compensate.

In other words, the amount of energy it drains will be proportionate to the amount of energy its target has.

This change is still in an early state and not guaranteed to be working 100% just yet, but that's the functionality we're aiming for.

If this works out, many other Energy Drain powers may see their functionality changed in similar ways.
IMO if anything they should be what the keyword is "siphon". A Drain would be simply that a drain but the word siphon means to me that it takes the energy and siphons it into yours. Although this is not what it does but I would have to disagree where it cannot take a subsystem offline. That's like me telling a npc or player when I am fighting them TIME OUT A SEC!!!

Honestly though besides it not siphoning there are actual broken things on the kdf side as well as stf's in general I feel should be fixed before any experimenting of changing how things that are not broken still work. Like for instance probes, nanites, freighters you can bombard them with every drain in the arsenal of draining and they are going to keep moving. As far as ground which is not where siphon is but this relates to the pathing if you try to push back workers like in the cure they will glitch and go immediately to the node so I think these issues should be resolved before any nerfing of what might be the best untouched/unnerfed ability that isn't nerfed into oblivion or completely broken with carriers that is still around.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 150
04-28-2012, 02:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dribyelruh View Post
Weapons power is the obvious exception. Drop shields to 50 power and you haven't done nearly as much. With massive diminishing returns the lower power gets, you're going to end up with the *** backwards situation where a very highly spec'd in target subsystems will work fine against a target with high power in a subsystem, and do barely anything when a player is running very low power in a subsystem.

That is completely backwards to how things should be.

If you decide to run low shield power you should be vulnerable to shield drains. It's the obvious consequence. If you get hit with multiple drains, you may need to redistribute more power to shields so you don't get disabled. The opposite is bad design, care bear logic, and exactly backwards thinking.
Trek had several energy drain effects that got worse the more power you expanded. So it's just canon.

Tyken's Rift, Energy Siphon and Siphon Drones debuff all energy levels. So they always also hit weapons, so they are fine.

The only energy drain powers that are subsystem specific are the Beam Target Subsystem powers. And they still have a disable proc chance. Maybe they should have additional effects (Weapons: Damage Strength Debuff; Shields: Shield Drain; Aux: Heal Strength Debuff; Engines: Turn Rate Debuff). Maybe they are the only powers that don't need to be affected at all by the new mechanical change.
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