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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-23-2012, 04:35 PM
What about that, why not just get rid of all Mass effect look-a-like armors and weapons and replace them with more Starfleet looking uniforms and gear?
Since STO pretends to be a Star Trek game i think it would be much more appropriate that STARFLEET security should be present instead of some generic Sci Fi soldiers.

On TV, Starfleet didn't need heavy Armor or huge Weapons, their weapons had already enough firepower to make personal forcefields or armor useless. (Except the Borg shields but thats another topic where talking about Starfleet here, not the borg.)
I think they (cryptic) introduced those armors and weapons to make the game look more "cool" (whatever they think of being "cool" ), they just don't care if it fits into the Star Trek universe or not...

For me thats just another example that they didn't care to make the game look and feel like Star Trek, they just keep throwing in what THEY like...
Man i wish STO would be a singleplayer game, so talented people who really know about Star Trek could make some mods to replace cryptics stuff with more Star Trekkish things.
Good night.

Live long and prosper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-23-2012, 05:37 PM
I'll be blunt. I'm not a M.A.C.O. fan whatsoever. Starfleet is the Elite of the Elite. There is nothing better. Starfleet Security is more than sufficient to handle starbase incursions and bar fights.

I agree that the armor costumes need toned down on the Starbases. With less high-speed strutting down the corridors.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-23-2012, 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi'a Meese
I'll be blunt. I'm not a M.A.C.O. fan whatsoever. Starfleet is the Elite of the Elite. There is nothing better. Starfleet Security is more than sufficient to handle starbase incursions and bar fights.

I agree that the armor costumes need toned down on the Starbases. With less high-speed strutting down the corridors.
The countless red shirts of Starfleet Security that have died due to moronic choices in their careers suggests this idea is flawed. :p

I see MACOs having a very valid place, actually... In leading assault teams against targets that Starfleet Security have - on numerous and notable occasions - been shown to be ill-equipped to handle.

This said, you do not put a front-line commando on guard duty for a bunch of bureucrats. At best, it's a total waste of specialist resources. At worst, it betrays the peackeeping mentality of Starfleet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-23-2012, 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuatela
1. It's a military installation. If you haven't been to any military bases lately, you should probably visit one. See how many armed guards with fully automatic weapons there are (especially US military bases). Posting MACO's to Spacedock is like posting armed security at the Pentagon (which, btw, they do).
Actually no, it would be more posting the Delta Force and Navy Seals guarding the Pentagon.

MACO is a special unit, by adding them to ESD you are removing then as a special unit and turn then into base security.

Quote:
2. It's not a civilian installation. There may be civilians working there, but it's primarily military. Again, see the Pentagon. There are civilians working there, but the primary purpose is national defense and military planning and operations.
I am sorry but you have no basis to make such claim.

Quote:
3. MACO's are basically the Marines of Starfleet... the ground forces section of the Navy. And guess what one of the jobs the Marines have sometimes? Yep... they do security.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Security_Guard

I

Had enough?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-23-2012, 08:25 PM
The MACO helmet motorbike costumes are revolting. No thanks.

Might as well put them in Environmental Suits then.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
04-23-2012, 09:32 PM
I was more than happy to know MACO's were represented for player's in the STF's. And had high hopes that would be sufficient to fulfill that interest.

Yes. I agree that the Gold Shirts of TNG onward would love a sit-down with the Red Shirts of TOS, "Well, boys? What gives?" :p

Something I know has been previously mentioned in these forums was the interest in seeing more flavor between Starbases. As one example, ground as well as space-based. Also, any Starbase along a constant war front is more likely to be under a higher level of alert than, say, Starbase 1. I could see the armored Starfleet Security carrying themselves in such obvious fashion at Deep Space K-7 or Starbase 157 (both in Eta Eridani Sector Block). But I would prefer the Gold Shirt Security be seen on Starbase-39 Sierra or ESD. Neither of which see obvious assault risks. And if they did, let that be reflected in unique mission maps to fit the moment.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
04-24-2012, 06:02 AM
ESD isn't a military installation. I'm fairly sure it has high numbers of civilians, being the primary docking port for ALL spaceships at earth.

I'm not sure about you all, but I'm happy about the armors and kits. Why? Cause wearing nothing more then a cloth uniform into battle is stupid as hell.

It's no wonder away teams had such high death rates. They had NOTHING to protect themselves. You could say that "Phasers make personal armor/force fields pointless" but what military focuses purely on the offensive? Starfleet itself is one that'd focus on defensive tech, such as armors.

Reality is, in the TV show, the Federation ground forces could easily be mopped up by any group wearing actual armor, and using actual realistic tactics (vehicle support, heavy weapons, etc).

Those kits and armors actually make Starfleet ground forces look like that, actual ground forces. Sure they sometimes might look the best, but they look far better then acting as if a bunch of guys in cloth uniforms is the pinnacle of the Federation military. Also, their weapons might make ENEMY personal defenses pointless (doubtful), that doesn't mean that Starfleet wouldn't invest time into shielding their own guys.

Oh yeah, remember the movies? Like final frontier? Where the security guards had armor?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
04-24-2012, 08:26 AM
Hell, I'd be happy if they put them all into actual uniforms. Starfleet no longer has a uniform. :/
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
04-24-2012, 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuatela

1. It's a military installation. If you haven't been to any military bases lately, you should probably visit one. See how many armed guards with fully automatic weapons there are (especially US military bases). Posting MACO's to Spacedock is like posting armed security at the Pentagon (which, btw, they do).

Outside of the Middle East, and the bases in an around Washington DC this is simply not true. Do they have them available, Oh heck yeah! But as a general rule, US Bases in the US, in Europe and Asia don't have roving teams of Elite Soldiers (Like MACOs are) roaming bases with automatic weapons, or at all in fact. Most base security in the US is handled by either regular soldiers, sailors, arman, or Marines or Civilian security, armed with only handguns
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
04-24-2012, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koppenflak
Nothing wrong with my logic.

How about, rather than dismissing the argument outright, you show me where in Star Trek we saw heavily armed commandos guarding Starfleet Installations. I don't really care what happens in real life, as that is not - and has never been - a precedent for what we've seen in Star Trek.

Not even the troops who guarded an imprisoned Gul Dukat in the Dominion War were seen to wear anything more than grey-top duty uniforms.
What do you mean nothing in the real world precedent for what we see in Star Trek?


1. In TOS, we had Commodores. In TNG onward, we never see a Commodore. You know why? Because the US Navy replaced "Commodore" with "Rear Admiral, Lower Half".

2. Starfleet follows real-world naval traditions. For example, the tradition of calling the ship commander "Captain" regardless of rank. That's a tradition dating back to the early days of sailing.

3. The structure of the United Federation of Planets follows the United States of America in a number of ways:
-- UFP President is the executive branch, and is "Commander in Chief" of the armed forces. He has the authority to declare martial law or otherwise take emergency actions.
-- Federation Council mirrors Congress (though it's probably more like Parliament than US Congress), and has basically the same job (legislature)
-- Federation Courts follow the same pattern as the US Judiciary system, including local, district, and Supreme Court.


And to answer your question, armed guards are seen in pretty much every series while on duty. If nothing else, they at least have a sidearm. During the Dominion War, pretty much every officer had a sidearm while on duty, especially if they were close to or in the combat area (see DS9).

I'm not saying we "absolutely must have" guys wearing full MACO body armor, but it does make sense to have armed guards. It's canon, and it just makes sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
Actually no, it would be more posting the Delta Force and Navy Seals guarding the Pentagon.

MACO is a special unit, by adding them to ESD you are removing then as a special unit and turn then into base security.
To me, MACO's are the Marines of the Federation. I see them more as dedicated ground troops or at least better trained at it, but not necessarily special forces. Maybe that's how STO sees them, with all the armor they wear, but the ones in Enterprise certainly weren't Seals or Rangers. Again, I'm basing my opinion of MACO's on the ones seen in Enterprise, not the armor-wearing guys in STO.



Quote:
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron
I am sorry but you have no basis to make such claim.
Sure I do.

1. It was controlled by Starfleet (a military organization). Thus, a military installation.
2. It contained Starfleet ships and personnel. Thus, a predominantely military installation.
3. I don't recall seeing any civilians, but I'm sure they were there. But civilians population doesn't mean civilian station.
4. DS9 had a civilian population and many civilian workers, but it was stated multiple times that it was a military installation (even referred to as "a military installation" by the UFP President)

So... my conclusion? the primary installation orbiting Earth, controlled by Starfleet... is a Starfleet installation, and therefore military.




Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPTWinters
Outside of the Middle East, and the bases in an around Washington DC this is simply not true. Do they have them available, Oh heck yeah! But as a general rule, US Bases in the US, in Europe and Asia don't have roving teams of Elite Soldiers (Like MACOs are) roaming bases with automatic weapons, or at all in fact. Most base security in the US is handled by either regular soldiers, sailors, arman, or Marines or Civilian security, armed with only handguns

The rent-a-cops only have hand-guns, yeah. And security might be more lax than it was a few years ago, but I distinctly remember seeing a guy with an M-16 at the gate.


Also, I never said all security was handled by "elite soldiers", I said it was handled by Marines in some cases. Also, the installations I was referring to that would have "elite soldier" security are high-priority locations like the Pentagon or maybe Norfolk. The average base? Of course not, and I didn't mean to imply they did.
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