Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
05-02-2012, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
funny i didn't see that as a listed reward, last run I did it was a random roll at the end of the run. You may get extras from drops but you have to be the first to hit need on them
Based on the above, I'm guessing you don't run elite STF's? Every player gets 2 EDC's + a few random items at the end of an elite STF run, plus 6 more items to randomly distribute if the bonus objective is accomplished.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
05-02-2012, 03:17 PM
if 2 are guaranteed than the borg set becomes viable, I don't run STF's often because I hate grind. It's typically much faster to do some Doffing for EC, buy what you want off the exchange, then go and play how you like.

looking at the specs though, the only real advantage I see is for sector space warp, covenient but not cambat useful. Maco deflector + omega shields seems nice though.

all in all none of the specs other than perhaps the omega shields or the borg engines for sector space seem all that much better than the easy to get sets.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
05-02-2012, 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
breen has many buffs that are useless on escorts and even cruisers to an extent, it does work better on sci though and it easily outclasses non set items if you're just assemblinng purple ones.
The biggest weakness of the breen set are the combat impulse engines, resulting in very slow top speed. The set bonuses are meh (2-set: +30% power transfer, 3-set: 120 sec CD power siphon).

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
a bonus damage to shields is beneficial for a cruiser but useless in an escort. Sheilds already drop halfway through the first volley of DHC's without any shield damage buff, this is why tetryon weapons have limited usefulness on an escort.
Here's the difference: Tetryon Glider has a 100% trigger rate, compared to Tetryon's 2.5% rate. This means every cannon volley drains -37 shield drain x 4 shots per cannon or beam volley x 4 shields facings = 592 total shield drain per volley per weapon. That's a LOT of bonus shield drain (especially if no Power Insulators are present). In a word: ouch!

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
even on a cruiser once the facing is down on the ship you're attacking you've lost that bonus damage, the jems 7.5% is a bonus regardless of shields being up or down and its added after all other buffs so I'd challenge you to show me that any of the other sets can beat its damage. No speculation, show me the numbers.
Many cruisers run tactical team, so if you want to punch through, you still need to effectively drain all shields before your weapons start hitting bare hull. The polaron system energy drain proc reduces shield resists and recharge, but system energy is restored in less than a few seconds, thereby limiting Polaron's effectiveness.

You wanted numbers, so here they are:

You have a target cruiser with 10k shields per facing after all bonuses are factored in. With Tactical Team up, that target going to be 40k total shields, not just 10k, that you must blast through before you can deal direct hull damage. Most DC's and DHC's deal about 250 dps/sec before bonuses. With four +26% dmg consoles, now you get a +104% bonus. Let's say your ship runs 4 forward DC's or DHC's. Your total DPS is 2193 dmg / sec with the JH set bonus present and all polaron DC's.

Now let's look at the same weapons with Omega Tetryon Glider. Net DPS is still 2040 dmg / sec, but bonus shield drain is (-37 x 4 cannons x 2 shot/sec x 4 shield facings) = 1184, or total 3224 dmg / sec vs. the shielded cruiser running TT1.

40k / 2193 dps = 18.24 seconds shield breach time for a full JH set with polaron weapons.

40k / 3224 dps = 12.4 seconds shield breach time for the same weapons with 2 Omega Set items.

Most ships have about 40k-50k hull, but this number drops fast under a HYT3 quantum torpedo salvo or AP-weapons. So, while the JH + Polaron weapon set is still trying to drop the cruiser's shield, the Omega-TG ship has already had 6 extra seconds to hammer the target's exposed hull. Tetryon Glider also works with any energy weapon type, not just Polaron like the JH-set requires.

As you can see, this is a huge difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
too often those who run STF's pop off the same mantra without really thinking about the time investment. Even at 5 edc's a piece you're not guaranteed to get 1 each run so that's at least a 15 elite STF sink if not more. Based on the griefers in an elite STF and how unforgiving they are to new runners that will feel like much more. Also the universal console is a mission reward and I haven't seen many VA's run without it so counting that as seperate doesn't make sense.
I formed all of my ship builds based on a lot of research and personal number crunching. Until just a few weeks ago, no one could even confirm if Tetryon Glider proc'd per shot or per firing cycle. I thought it was the latter, when personal testing revealed the exact opposite. So no, I don't just preach... I also test first hand to insure my facts are correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
the other sets are 200 hour sinks so yeah you can keep your supposed advantage. Any advantage you think you have in the set is easily countered 10 hours of PvP run experience. Spend the whole 200 hours PvPing instead and your elite STF runner doesn't stand a chance, even with that better gear. If you're going for an advantage in STFs....yeah no cares about a 2% buff I have to grind for to be better at grinding.
PVP experience is a good ship optimization reference point, but it doesn't replace PVE experience, and vice versa. I've been PVP'ing since STO came out, but PVP won't give you any MK XII weapons, nor Omega XII's, MACO XII's, etc... Combat experience is nice, but good gear will multiply your ship's effectiveness based on that combat experience. PVP experience alone won't let you win against an equally skilled but better equipped opponent.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 74
05-02-2012, 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
You may get extras from drops but you have to be the first to hit need on them
That's not how it works.

It's a random draw. However Need takes priority over Greed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 75
05-02-2012, 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
if 2 are guaranteed than the borg set becomes viable, I don't run STF's often because I hate grind. It's typically much faster to do some Doffing for EC, buy what you want off the exchange, then go and play how you like.

looking at the specs though, the only real advantage I see is for sector space warp, covenient but not cambat useful. Maco deflector + omega shields seems nice though.

all in all none of the specs other than perhaps the omega shields or the borg engines for sector space seem all that much better than the easy to get sets.
Elite STF's only take 15 minutes or less per run with a good team securing the optional bonus. Optional Bonus = 6 extra drops, occasionally yielding Mk XII tokens to trade in for whatever you need. Yes, it can be a long grind if you don't have a good team, but an organized group will mop up elite STF's like clockwork. At that pace, you can get 1 borg piece every 40 minutes, not to mention getting an occasional Mk XII drop!

The Borg Console takes less than 30 minutes to get if you know what to do. The Borg Deflector is my personal favorite given its +2k hull points bonus and power insulators to defend against shield drains and subsystem attacks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 76
05-02-2012, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487


Here's the difference: Tetryon Glider has a 100% trigger rate, compared to Tetryon's 2.5% rate. This means every cannon volley drains -37 shield drain x 4 shots per cannon or beam volley x 4 shields facings = 592 total shield drain per volley per weapon. That's a LOT of bonus shield drain (especially if no Power Insulators are present). In a word: ouch! .
again those shields are down mid volley, you're completely elaving off any boff powers, captain powers, captain specs and etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
Many cruisers run tactical team, so if you want to punch through, you still need to effectively drain all shields before your weapons start hitting bare hull. The polaron system energy drain proc reduces shield resists and recharge, but system energy is restored in less than a few seconds, thereby limiting Polaron's effectiveness.

You wanted numbers, so here they are:

You have a target cruiser with 10k shields per facing after all bonuses are factored in. With Tactical Team up, that target going to be 40k total shields, not just 10k, that you must blast through before you can deal direct hull damage. Most DC's and DHC's deal about 250 dps/sec before bonuses. With four +26% dmg consoles, now you get a +104% bonus. Let's say your ship runs 4 forward DC's or DHC's. Your total DPS is 2193 dmg / sec with the JH set bonus present and all polaron DC's.

Now let's look at the same weapons with Omega Tetryon Glider. Net DPS is still 2040 dmg / sec, but bonus shield drain is (-37 x 4 cannons x 2 shot/sec x 4 shield facings) = 1184, or total 3224 dmg / sec vs. the shielded cruiser running TT1.

40k / 2193 dps = 18.24 seconds shield breach time for a full JH set with polaron weapons.

40k / 3224 dps = 12.4 seconds shield breach time for the same weapons with 2 Omega Set items.

Most ships have about 40k-50k hull, but this number drops fast under a HYT3 quantum torpedo salvo or AP-weapons. So, while the JH + Polaron weapon set is still trying to drop the cruiser's shield, the Omega-TG ship has already had 6 extra seconds to hammer the target's exposed hull. Tetryon Glider also works with any energy weapon type, not just Polaron like the JH-set requires.

As you can see, this is a huge difference.
.
I said real numbers not made up ones, a single DHC can do that much damage ie you take 6 weapons off your escort and it'll do that much damage. use the weapon calculator and you'll see that a single attack of 4x DHC = 3x turrets + the right captain loadout + attack pattern alpha + target focus + rapid fire 3 + attack pattern omega + tac team = fully buffed target has no more shields and half hull. A non buffed target is dead.


I
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 77
05-02-2012, 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
again those shields are down mid volley, you're completely elaving off any boff powers, captain powers, captain specs and etc.
...And you're also ignoring Tactical team1's auto-shield distribution effect, not to mention EPtS's shield resists. Most seasoned PVP'er will run two TT1 instances, so punching through 1 shield won't necessarily insure a kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
I said real numbers not made up ones, a single DHC can do that much damage ie you take 6 weapons off your escort and it'll do that much damage. use the weapon calculator and you'll see that a single attack of 4x DHC = 3x turrets + the right captain loadout + attack pattern alpha + target focus + rapid fire 3 + attack pattern omega + tac team = fully buffed target has no more shields and half hull. A non buffed target is dead.


I
The above demonstrate how the weapons and sets behave independent of buffs. By throwing buffs into the mix, you only shorten the effective kill time scales without changing their relative performance ratios by any significant amount (since all damage increases linearly). Also, while shield resists minimize Polaron + JH set damage bonus, Tetryon Glider is only affected by Power Insulators, so EPtS is far less effective vs. Tetryon Glider since it ignores the latter's bonus shield damage resistance (it's bonus shield drain, not shield damage).

I'll be happy to test your build in combat vs. mine if you wish.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 78
05-02-2012, 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
...And you're also ignoring Tactical team1's auto-shield distribution effect, not to mention EPtS's shield resists. Most seasoned PVP'er will run two TT1 instances, so punching through 1 shield won't necessarily insure a kill.



The above demonstrate how the weapons and sets behave independent of buffs. By throwing buffs into the mix, you only shorten the effective kill time scales without changing their relative performance ratios by any significant amount (since all damage increases linearly). Also, while shield resists minimize Polaron + JH set damage bonus, Tetryon Glider is only affected by Power Insulators, so EPtS is far less effective vs. Tetryon Glider since it ignores the latter's bonus shield damage resistance (it's bonus shield drain, not shield damage).

I'll be happy to test your build in combat vs. mine if you wish.
while I'm certainly your huckleberry you first need to locate and use the ship weapons calculator, like you're so far off that you've listed an escports dps that less than a standard sci cruisers dps.

you're not anywhere near close to giving accurate info in that post. In fact it's nearly entirely false.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 79
05-02-2012, 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
while I'm certainly your huckleberry you first need to locate and use the ship weapons calculator, like you're so far off that you've listed an escports dps that less than a standard sci cruisers dps.

you're not anywhere near close to giving accurate info in that post. In fact it's nearly entirely false.
You're going way too far off tangent to be relevant in this post. This thread is about comparing general set performance, not a quick snapshot of spike damage while AP-Omega, TT1, Tactical Fleet, GDF, etc, are active. These only provide a 10-15 second DPS burst. After that, your damage output turns into meh. This tactic is fine for PVP, but in elite STF's, you will draw agro and quickly die unless you have good defenses to boot. You will NOT be able to burst down a full health elite tactical cube by simply blowing cooldowns together. Also, you seem to be putting blind faith in an online damage calculator that doesn't factor relative positioning, tactics, consoles, etc. in a real time combat scenario. Is that damage calculator up to date with the current patch? If you don't know, please link the one you are using here, and I'll be happy to check for you.

Remember, I only posted those numbers to compare set functions and behavior. If you want to prove me wrong, then I will be happy to test real-time combat numbers with you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 80
05-03-2012, 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shar487
You're going way too far off tangent to be relevant in this post. This thread is about comparing general set performance, not a quick snapshot of spike damage while AP-Omega, TT1, Tactical Fleet, GDF, etc, are active. These only provide a 10-15 second DPS burst. After that, your damage output turns into meh. This tactic is fine for PVP, but in elite STF's, you will draw agro and quickly die unless you have good defenses to boot. You will NOT be able to burst down a full health elite tactical cube by simply blowing cooldowns together. Also, you seem to be putting blind faith in an online damage calculator that doesn't factor relative positioning, tactics, consoles, etc. in a real time combat scenario. Is that damage calculator up to date with the current patch? If you don't know, please link the one you are using here, and I'll be happy to check for you.

Remember, I only posted those numbers to compare set functions and behavior. If you want to prove me wrong, then I will be happy to test real-time combat numbers with you.
whats the point of getting the sets if all you're getting them for is STF's? So you're STFing like crazy just to be better at STFing? how is that entertaining at all? Thats just grind grind grind so you can grind grind grind some more. If you're not getting the sets for PvP why are you getting them? just to have them?


at any rate escorts are nearly entirely burst damage also 10-15 seconds is the same as the tac team buff you seem to think every cruiser is running.

your numbers aren't even good for a referense so yes even an outdated (last update nov 2011) is more relevant than yours. And that calculator is extrememly conservative compared with the DPS DHC escort builds get via the log. A typical buffed full attack from a DHC build escort is in the 40000-50000 damage range. Yes this does include crits but with the fire rate of the DHC's and turrets its impossible to not crit. Those logging their dps in a PvP match typically see overall DPS in the 12000-20000 range.

I'm not going to go out of my timezone range just to prove to you what is already apparent to anyone running a tacscort at VA, but if you're on at 9pm-11pm pacific either tonight or tomorrow night you my toon is regulus and my ship is the snape, I'll be at or around starbase 24 or ESD depending on the time.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:41 AM.