Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
05-03-2012, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
whats the point of getting the sets if all you're getting them for is STF's? So you're STFing like crazy just to be better at STFing? how is that entertaining at all? Thats just grind grind grind so you can grind grind grind some more. If you're not getting the sets for PvP why are you getting them? just to have them?
I play STF's for 2 reasons: 1) They are entertaining when done right 2) You get the BEST available gear in the game now. STO is nothing but a big entertainment time sink, and yet we all play STO's many sub-games depending on what floats our individual boats. Either way, the original poster asked specifically about which sets work best in STF's and why. You're free to post your thoughts on the matter here, but if you want to simply discuss PVP escorts, then you are in the wrong forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
at any rate escorts are nearly entirely burst damage also 10-15 seconds is the same as the tac team buff you seem to think every cruiser is running.
Escort burst is easily countered by many tactics, so if burst is all you have, then be ready for some disappointment, especially in elite STF's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
your numbers aren't even good for a referense so yes even an outdated (last update nov 2011) is more relevant than yours. And that calculator is extrememly conservative compared with the DPS DHC escort builds get via the log. A typical buffed full attack from a DHC build escort is in the 40000-50000 damage range. Yes this does include crits but with the fire rate of the DHC's and turrets its impossible to not crit. Those logging their dps in a PvP match typically see overall DPS in the 12000-20000 range.
You still do not sound like you understand how those numbers were derived... why else is an outdated damage calculator your sole reference point? You need to stop letting tac buff multiplier overwhelm and confuse you since they can be applied to any set, effectively canceling out their relevance.

Let Tac_Buffs = "all available tac damage multiplier buffs". If Set1(x) * Tac_Buffs = Set2(x) * Tac_Buffs, then obviously Set1(x) = Set2(x). Because Tac_Buffs is a constant and present on both sides of the equation, then it can canceled out of both sides of the equation, leaving you with only Set1(x) = Set2(x). The real question is what goes in the "=" location... should it be equal, greater, or less-than?

Based on the Jem'Hadar set description, JH_Set(x) = x * 1.076, where x = total polaron unbuffed weapon damage. This is a flat +7.6% multiplier.

Tetryon Glider behaves as follows: Omega_TG(x) = x + (Shield_Drain * Energy_Weapon_Count * Hits_Per_Volley * Target_Shield_Facings). With Shield_Drain = 37, Energy_Weapon_Count = 6 (3 cannons + 3 turrets), Hits_Per_Volley = 4, and Target_Shield_Facincgs = 4, the final bonus shield drain = 3552. Once shields hit zero, the TG bonus goes away, but an unshielded target is far easier to kill. Obviously this is a more convoluted equasion, but covers all the basics.

If you solve for (x), the breakpoint where JH_Set (x) = Omega_TG (x), x = 46736.84. Therefore, each of your (6) Polaron Weapons must surpass 7789 per volley for JH_Set(x) to overtake Omega_TG(x). According to http://www.stowiki.org/Polaron_Dual_Heavy_Cannons, Mk XII DHC's and DC's average 256 DPS (not too far from my 250-example), or 512 damage over a 2 second firing cycle. This still falls short of the 7789 per volley number mentioned above.

I know the calculator makes crunching numbers easier, but without a fundamental understanding of how damage is computed in this game, you are at the mercy of whatever the "black box calculator" tells you is fact, especially when that calculator is half a year out of date, and we have yet another patch today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
I'm not going to go out of my timezone range just to prove to you what is already apparent to anyone running a tacscort at VA, but if you're on at 9pm-11pm pacific either tonight or tomorrow night you my toon is regulus and my ship is the snape, I'll be at or around starbase 24 or ESD depending on the time.
I'm usually online at that time... just send @Shar487 a message when ready to test your build in combat.

EDIT: If anyone finds any errors in my math, please feel free to correct me. It's been far too long since I last visited basic Algebra lol... and yes, I did find an error, but corrected it
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
05-03-2012, 03:52 PM
you really have no idea how character builds affect dps do you?

go to a systema and activate alpha and etc and you'll see those types of mod will let you see the dps on the item when you hover over it. each DHC will be over 1000DPS without even factoring in rapid fire 3 or even hitting all the buffs.

while I did mention the weapons calculator its not all I'm using (though you seem to get all your numbers from a much less reliable source ie base non modified weapons stat irregardless of character build, ship loadout, or buffs)

I also use this
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...ght=combat+log

believe me, you're nowhere near close. In fact you are so far off that if your numbers were true, you would never be able to drop a single spheres shields on elite.

forget a PvP target that actively hitting buffs.

based on the numbers in that thread you seem to think a tacscort can only put out the dps of a sci-cruiser with a sci captain.

seriously do REAL homework. Don't keep speculating, you're just misleading those who don't know better.

as an example my star cruiser with the same tac capatin logged well over 3500 DPS with just 2 tac consoles over the course of a PvP match.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
05-03-2012, 04:24 PM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
05-03-2012, 09:14 PM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
05-03-2012, 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogurt21
sigh you're the one who doesn't seem to be keeping up. This all hinged on the fact that you thought tet glider was superior to an always on damage buff ie works for hull and shields. the point of all the buffs is that since the shields fall so easily anyways with any normal escort volley, tetryon weapons are a waste on an escort and thus tet glider is not as effective for PvP as the flat damage bonus. Now again this is different for STF's but I have stated and will continue to state that grinding for a set that is only useful for grinding make zero sense to me.

oh and for the insults, your post has been reported. Also welcome to ignore.
I've been online all night waiting for you to demonstrate the Jem'Hadar set's "superior" DPS in actual combat, but haven't seen you log on once. Being a pre-algebra student is no insult either, but it does offer the rest of us some insight towards your current problem-solving and analytical skills. You are welcome to keep posting in this thread, but if you wish to prove that the Jem'Hadar set is genuinely better than Uber_STF_Set-A, then you had better be ready to provide basic mathematical proof supporting your position. If you rely on an DPS calculator but don't know its underlying code, then you cannot arrive any meaningful conclusions.

This is what I was requesting from my last post:

x = total unmodified weapon damage, # of weapons = 6
JH_Set(x) = x * 1.076
Omega_TG(x) = x + 3552

Therefore, you need to find out when JH_Set(x) >= Omega_TG(x). So...

x * 1.076 >= x + 3552,
x * 1.076 - x >= 3552
x * (1.076 - 1) >= 3552
x = (3552 / 0.076) >= 46736.84

46736.84 total dmg / 6 weapons = 7789 damage per weapon. This is when the JH set overtakes Omega, but this value is above the maximum base damage output of any current standard weapon. Even my Mk XII AP cannons only do 1877 dmg / volley (1251 dps) at 125 weapon power, full captain build factored in.

This is all I asked for, since solving it would have proven that you actually understood how both JH and Omega set functions behave regardless of current power level, captain build, ship build, etc.

Anyway, hope this makes sense to you some day.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
05-04-2012, 01:43 AM
Quote:
as an example my star cruiser with the same tac capatin
first i was like, hmm...dude has a point. But after reading this i knew i was dealing with a noob!
srsly a tactical captain in a star cruiser is a real noob indicator. i suggest you get yourself an escort and stick with it. You are wasting a lot of dmg potential by that cruiser choice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
05-04-2012, 05:27 AM
Hey guys let's throttle back here just a bit.

Clearly you guys don't agree and aren't going to which is fine. You've both stated your positions and the reader is going to decide which he finds more compelling or more suited to his ship, combat style, etc.

Continuing to fight about it is only going to dilute the thread which I think has been incredibly helpful thus far in putting out some good knowledge of the current state of the Ship Sets. I certainly learned a lot. Let's not undo the good work done here.

As for why I want a ship build for STFs primarily, I personally did PvP for a long while back in the emblem days and found it meh. STFs are currently more fun for me. When I get bored of them, I will try something else. Please don't shoehorn me into PvP as being some kind of perfect end state. Not everyone plays STO for the same reasons.

Deacon
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 88
05-04-2012, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon211 View Post
Hey guys let's throttle back here just a bit.

Clearly you guys don't agree and aren't going to which is fine. You've both stated your positions and the reader is going to decide which he finds more compelling or more suited to his ship, combat style, etc.

Continuing to fight about it is only going to dilute the thread which I think has been incredibly helpful thus far in putting out some good knowledge of the current state of the Ship Sets. I certainly learned a lot. Let's not undo the good work done here.

As for why I want a ship build for STFs primarily, I personally did PvP for a long while back in the emblem days and found it meh. STFs are currently more fun for me. When I get bored of them, I will try something else. Please don't shoehorn me into PvP as being some kind of perfect end state. Not everyone plays STO for the same reasons.

Deacon
I've tried to keep this thread on track by specifically measuring set performances without ship type, build, nor captain bonuses skewing results. Bringing shared variables into the mix only serves to confuse the evaluation.

Let's say x = "How a given set performs." If you are solving for an unknown x in the equation c + a = x + a + b, then you must isolate x onto one side of the equal sign, then start eliminating variables to simplify the equation. Now, suppose "a" represents (captain + ship + build buffs), and x = Set1. If you want to simplify the above, then you deliberately subtract variable-a from both sides since they are shared constants, leaving us with c = x + b, and the solution becomes c - b = x. Notice how "a" simply made the equation unnecessarily longer on both sides of the equal sign? Remember, a = captain + ship + build buffs, so as you can see, these play no part in determining x or Set1's actual value.

Sorry if the above confuses anyone, but this is how unknown values are solved with math. We know the exact functions representing each set. As damage output approaches infinity (or when the target's shields are gone), the Jem'Hadar set will overtake Omega's Tetryon Glider. However, that damage value is well above what the best STO weapon's currently output, so only full shield removal will let JH pull ahead by a full +7.6% bonus damage. I personally use Anti-Proton, because it's combination with Omega TG gives you full benefits against both hull and shield.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 89
05-04-2012, 09:41 AM
No, I understand what you are saying, but it's clear that he's not going to convince you and you are not going to convince him. The other readers will just need to decide for themselves.

At this point though, it may just be time to agree to disagree.

So, not to change the subject (but sort of ;-) ), I was under the impression that TG would be benefitted from running with a Tetryon load out. But you're running AP (as am I currently) so I take it this is not true?

Deacon
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 90
05-04-2012, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon211 View Post
No, I understand what you are saying, but it's clear that he's not going to convince you and you are not going to convince him. The other readers will just need to decide for themselves.

At this point though, it may just be time to agree to disagree.
I'll agree there, but STO is a indeed a numbers-driven game, and it's difficult to dispute mathematics (not to be confused with experimental error) when one's problem-solving skills are shaky at best

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon211 View Post
So, not to change the subject (but sort of ;-) ), I was under the impression that TG would be benefitted from running with a Tetryon load out. But you're running AP (as am I currently) so I take it this is not true?

Deacon


Correct... Tetryon Glider adds a shield drain effect to ANY energy weapon, and at a level that far exceeds any 2.5% tetryon since it operates at 100% proc rate per hit. What really makes TG nasty is that it drains all shield facings with every hit, and since cannons shoot 4x (DHC's shoot 2x) per volley, then at maxed Flow Capacitors, that's a guaranteed -37 shield drain x 4 shots x 4 shield facings = -592 potential shield drained per volley, assuming all shots hit and no target Power Insulators are present.

I personally do not run Tetryon weapons because they have no bonus vs. hulls, and their base 2.5% proc rates are somewhat low and unreliable. Omega Tetryon Glider is a different story -- its shield drain is consistently good, directly augmenting all energy weapons present regardless of type.

Antiproton weapons have bonus critical severity that affects both shields and hull, and tactical captains can increase critical hit rates using their cool down abilities. This paired with Omega Tetryon Glider yields results that non-STF'ers can only dream of.

Both MACO and Omega sets have excellent combat stats, though Omega has a clear offensive advantage. Jem'Hadar would be fine if it had better shield stats, +26% bonus Polaron Damage (equivalent to 1 weapon console, as opposed to the small +7.6% is has now) and a buff-removal proc that worked on all ships... unfortunately, Dominion Synergy is restricted to Galors and JHAS. I personally tested all of these sets in STF's and PVP before arriving at any conclusions, unlike the opposing party.
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