Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 121
05-03-2012, 02:45 PM
Cryptic's goal is to have plenty of players repeat Normals and/or Elites all the time. They have constructed the loot tables in such a way that the lucky players will encourage the unlucky to keep trying and repeating STF content.

And they know once players have unlocked their desired Sets and Costumes that they stop playing them. That is why the newest sets will only be available to Elites for a long period before they are offered as "something new" to Normals.

This is the goal of STF drops - to get you to play longer and repeat STF content often. A cosmetic achievement for "playing well with others" is just a nice way to say it. And in this regard they have succeeded, not failed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 122
05-03-2012, 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror-Master
This is the goal of STF drops - to get you to play longer and repeat STF content often. A cosmetic achievement for "playing well with others" is just a nice way to say it. And in this regard they have succeeded, not failed.
Sure...if you ignore the rest of his sentence:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic_Gozer
They will be a visual achievement of the time and effort you have devoted to "playing well with others"
As previously stated, time and effort have nothing to do with luck, therefore if the stated goal is to represent time and effort then that is a failure.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 123
05-03-2012, 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
If that is your goal then you have failed. Why? Because it is random, and a random drop does not represent time or effort. If 1 guy can do a thousand runs and not get anything, while another guy can do 3 runs and get a full set, then it is not based on "the time and effort you have devoted", it is based on a random roll of the loot dice. Thank you for actually finding your own quote though, because that proves for a fact that the way the system works is not how you said it was intended to be.
There are edge cases for any design. Yes there is a chance you might never get something. Yes there is a chance you might get all three pieces of a set the first 3 times you play. However the chance that either of those things actually happen is extremely low.

The system works exactly as it was designed. I know how many people are playing STF's. I know how many people are getting tech drops. The average is exactly where I want it to be at the current time.

You can already get 75% of the STF gear without much time or effort spent at all. If you don't feel the time / effort spent to get the last 25% of the gear is worth it. Don't play it. There are other things you can do in the game.

This is pretty much the last thing I'm going to say on the matter for now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 124
05-03-2012, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic_Gozer
There are edge cases for any design. Yes there is a chance you might never get something. Yes there is a chance you might get all three pieces of a set the first 3 times you play. However the chance that either of those things actually happen is extremely low.
So, again, how does this chance reward time and effort? You're not answering that question.

Quote:
The system works exactly as it was designed. I know how many people are playing STF's. I know how many people are getting tech drops. The average is exactly where I want it to be at the current time.

You can already get 75% of the STF gear without much time or effort spent at all. If you don't feel the time / effort spent to get the last 25% of the gear is worth it. Don't play it. There are other things you can do in the game.
Nobody is arguing that the system isn't working as designed. We are arguing that the intent of rewarding time and effort does not currently exist in this design. All that exists is rewarding luck.

That's not semantic. That's a huge difference.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 125
05-03-2012, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Exactly that. Luck ≠ time. Luck ≠ effort. If this gear were truly representative of time and effort then it would require a set amount of time and effort for everyone, not be based on luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuntKathy
I put a thought experiment in just as you edited your post. See if it is fairly analogous.
Are you two serious?



You will not find a game, save for maybe some single personal RPG that if you kill a end game boss you get X loot drop the majority of the time. Not in STO, WOW, EverQuest 1 and 2, or any other major MMO I can think of.
Heck i been down in some of those instances with 39 other people on runs that would take 8 to 12 hours to complete, hoping the boss would drop the piece I would need or so-and-so would need to finish the set and that was completely random.

What you two are going on about is nothing more then mincing of words. Lets keep on track here, If the person who Created it says it is working as it is intended, that means his bosses
Excutive Producer - Dan
CEO - Jack

Agree and that is the end of the discussion.

If they say its broke, that is the end of the discussion.

No, I do not like the drops anymore then either of you do, on one character I worked myself to death and still got nadda, just bad luck. on another, wham bam thank you ma'am had him all decked out in a 10th of the time I spent on the other. I can even appreciate that you both voice your opinion on the subject and do not like it. Hey that is cool.

But when we go out of our way to trip folks up, and attempt to make them look bad on the forum hashing words back and forth, its just Slander gang, pure and simple.

As bright and intelligent as you both post you are, show some of it and stop this utter nonsense.


Honest to god I dont think people be happy if you hung them with a new rope...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 126
05-03-2012, 03:01 PM
When will Cryptic ever learn that lotteries are not content?

Believe it or not but I actually used to play the STF's for fun. The Mk XII set was never going to be even attempted. Until I got the first two pieces in one day which has done nothing but tease me for the rest of the month as I played the SAME MAP over and over hoping for the third drop.

Game quickly went from "fun" to "boring" and possibly even considering quitting. It's just really awful game design to have a player successfully complete a map 20-50+ times and get absolutely NOTHING from it. It's a big middle finger from the devs to the players.

I can't even run any of the other maps now for fear of getting a repeat of a piece I already have. At least when I was going for the Mk XI pieces I'd gladly help friends with whatever map they wanted to do. The thought in the back of my head during the Mk XI grind was that there was at least a light at the end of the tunnel. If I put enough work into it I'd get rewarded. If a rare piece dropped then that was just a bonus to cut the grind by 1/3rd of the way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 127
05-03-2012, 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
If that is your goal then you have failed. Why? Because it is random, and a random drop does not represent time or effort. If 1 guy can do a thousand runs and not get anything, while another guy can do 3 runs and get a full set, then it is not based on "the time and effort you have devoted", it is based on a random roll of the loot dice. Thank you for actually finding your own quote though, because that proves for a fact that the way the system works is not how you said it was intended to be.
Agreed completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic_Gozer
Yes there is a chance you might never get something.
Isn't that a problem? That would seem to be a problem to me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 128
05-03-2012, 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic_Gozer
There are edge cases for any design. Yes there is a chance you might never get something. Yes there is a chance you might get all three pieces of a set the first 3 times you play. However the chance that either of those things actually happen is extremely low.

The system works exactly as it was designed. I know how many people are playing STF's. I know how many people are getting tech drops. The average is exactly where I want it to be at the current time.

You can already get 75% of the STF gear without much time or effort spent at all. If you don't feel the time / effort spent to get the last 25% of the gear is worth it. Don't play it. There are other things you can do in the game.

This is pretty much the last thing I'm going to say on the matter for now.
You can talk about averages all you want, but the fact of the matter is a random drop has nothing to do with time and effort, and the old quote that you dug up specifically states this gear was supposed to be about time and effort. As long as the drops are random , the gear does not represent anything except luck. But as you stated above:

Quote:
The average is exactly where *I* want it to be at the current time.
Emphasis mine of course.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 129
05-03-2012, 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongoson View Post
You will not find a game, save for maybe some single personal RPG that if you kill a end game boss you get X loot drop the majority of the time. Not in STO, WOW, EverQuest 1 and 2, or any other major MMO I can think of.
O RLY? Tier items, up until tier 13, in this expansion and the last were directly earnable through both tokens and a set amount of badges. Giving, as the designers put it, you a chance to get gear after time if your loot drops were terrible. (They're changing the system yet again in the as yet unreleased expansion, but we haven't seen how that plays out yet.)

Legendaries for casters and rogues (I know, I have a rogue that has the legendary daggers - Find Angosia@Arathor) are after a period of time, not luck. It requires skill to run through a gauntlet, guaranteed boss loot drops, and an inordinate amount of time and gold. It does not, however, randomly 'not' drop.

Quote:
What you two are going on about is nothing more then mincing of words.
I'm not mincing words. I'm saying intent behind design and how it plays out are different. That's it.

You can save the rest of the rant for someone who needs it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 130
05-03-2012, 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Sure...if you ignore the rest of his sentence:



As previously stated, time and effort have nothing to do with luck, therefore if the stated goal is to represent time and effort then that is a failure.
I was about to mention that Gozer has access to all the stats and data and from Cryptic's point of view they know that on average players have spent X time obtaining these drops. To them, it probably does represent a lot of time and effort.

The way to market this from a Game Company's perspective is to say the cosmetics represent a reward for your time and effort and playing well with others. But in reality we all know the luck factor is a method to encourage the unlucky to keep trying.

This is a hamster wheel system but Cryptic is not going to flat out tell you that. They are going to market this in a much more PR savvy way. Which is why holding Gozer to technicalities in his statements won't work in this instance.
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