Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 201
05-06-2012, 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i am perfectly happy with my all mk 11 stuff, took some grinding but it was worth it. mk 12 stuff is not necessary, its not going to close some skill gap or make any meaningful difference for any of you. if you want the cool ground costumes just wait till the current best becomes the mk 11, i get the feeling its gonna happen sooner then later.
Oh boy. Let's wait for brand new sets to be released so we can get the old ones instead!

Sorry that doesn't cut it. When the new season comes out and the new gear is released the old gear becomes irrelevant. It's something you'll get on your alts if you have the time to. But it's hardly a reward for the skilled (and unlucky) players who've put hundreds of hours into STF's and walked out with nothing to show for it.

The lesser skilled but more lucky players will just get the shiny brand new sets and the skilled players who practically live STF's will be wearing old junk. To any sane person it looks like the problem will just start all over again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 202
05-06-2012, 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Here is my previous response to that argument:
It really doesnt matter if it is the norm or not, because telling the guy who did a thousand runs and got no drops that he is only in the minority doesnt actually make him feel any better.
That is true , but that has nothing to do with "does getting Proto Drops only take Chance , or Skill + Time as well ?" .

Quote:
The thing is, its not like this situation *has* to be this way. They could have easily designed the system so that these items had a definite value and that everyone was on the same playing field.
Agreed .

Quote:
But they *intentionally* designed it so that the drop was based on luck, not how much skill or effort you have personally put into the STFs.
There is always a time to recognize when an argument is not moving forward , and both sides remain unconvinced .
I think that this is that time .

See you in the next argument !
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 203
05-07-2012, 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trueheart
Ok, so what do you propose the norm is? Someone getting them after 100 runs? 200? Do we honestly have anyway of determining what the norm is supposed to be?
Since we do not know the % chance for a drop rate , all we can go by is that the "norm" is what exists between two extremes .

Quote:
I'd like to say at some point I should eventually have fallen into whatever reasonable "norm" is set to be established but my own experience has shown I tend to be on both ends of the spectrum. 3 rare drops from one STF, and after 100+ other STF runs only 1.
Interestingly enough , "the norm" seems not only to fluctuate wildly between one player and the next , but between the toons of the same player .


Quote:
To me that's a very broken drop rate calculation and by my own admission my skill, time and effort in Infected Space was a fraction of what I put in for KA Ground.
My experience has been a grindy-but semi-decent drop rate for my alt's , and a nightmare of 2.5 months of heavy grind of IGE for my main toon .

Quote:
But again I hope I'm being clear in that my issue isn't that STFs don't take skill, etc... it's that your chance at getting the loot doesn't matter how "work as a team", how much DPS you do, whether you get the optional or not, how much you heal others on the team, there's absolutely nothing in the mission you can do that has a direct impact on your chances of getting the rare tech.
The things I highlighted absolutely impact the speed with which you finish the STF .
There is a difference between an STF that is done in 20 minutes and one that is done in 40 minutes or more .
What is that difference ?
In 40-50 minutes you can do 2 space STF's -- thus you double your chances of getting "lucky" .
If , in the same 40-50 minutes you do only 1 STF , you have 50% less chance of accessing the random "luck" generator .
So this (possibly indirect way) of applying team-play , DPS , healing , skill & time all impact your chances of getting lucky .
(mind you I now feel a bit dirty for making a case for better accessing the "luck" based element -- which I in fact I strongly dislike in the game)


Quote:
Would it be bad for that random factor to be eliminated and simply make the loot something you get if you work hard and long enough?

Not at all . I strongly favor this , as I suspect that the low random factor (bad luck) was introduced only to keep us busy and hide the fact that very little is being added to endgame .

Quote:
I mean no insult to you, it's just difficult to understand how the current system can be viewed as beneficial to the game by anyone.
You have not insulted me (directly) , and I was not arguing for the current system .
All I was saying was that if you gave it your best , you increased your chances to try to get lucky more often.
But as I have also said , I also dislike the luck based system .

Quote:
And again, no offense, but someone who got really lucky and already has a complete set arguing how the system is fine seems a bit biased.
I can see your point , and if I was making that argument I might agree with you .
But that was not the argument I made .

Quote:
I respect the exclusivity of the sets and that you prefer having them remain ultra-rare... but all I'm proposing is that acquiring the sets is more dependent upon skill and dedication rather than being extremely lucky.
No argument here .

Quote:
I have the feeling that there are way more skilled and dedicated players in this game than there are lucky ones...
And I have the feeling that if I was not un-employed for 3 months (just recently started working again) , I would not have been so lucky . Not by a long shot .
But in those 3 months , I have put in the time ... (looking back -- a scary amount of time) -- and I have no doubt that that has doubled or even tripled my chances (such as they were) .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 204
05-07-2012, 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aresula
Oh boy. Let's wait for brand new sets to be released so we can get the old ones instead!

Sorry that doesn't cut it. When the new season comes out and the new gear is released the old gear becomes irrelevant. It's something you'll get on your alts if you have the time to. But it's hardly a reward for the skilled (and unlucky) players who've put hundreds of hours into STF's and walked out with nothing to show for it.

The lesser skilled but more lucky players will just get the shiny brand new sets and the skilled players who practically live STF's will be wearing old junk. To any sane person it looks like the problem will just start all over again.
any sane person wouldn't go to the trouble in the first place. be under no illusion that the visuals are not a reward for time and effort, it is purely luck. no player is entitled to any of this no mater how hard they work for it. this is just a game with random drops, this isn't a college were you are guaranteed a degree after putting in enough time and effort there.

it is absolutely guaranteed though that the mk XI and MK XII equipment, weapons, visuals, everything will eventually become as outdated and unwanted as the the mk IX and mk X stuff is now. depending on how high the level cap gets raised, mk XII stuff could become as worthless as mk VIII items.

the moral is, don't waist your life getting the absolute best equipment in a game with a level cap or newer visuals on the horizon. it will all be for nothing when you can get that stuff in 5 minutes after the eventual update. your options are to grind your life away, on not. that's just how games like this work, this is a mechanic designed to suck players in that have no self control. they are never going to change that, because people would play less if they can easily top out their characters with the best stuff not being lucky drop based.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 205
05-07-2012, 02:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aresula
Oh boy. Let's wait for brand new sets to be released so we can get the old ones instead!

Sorry that doesn't cut it. When the new season comes out and the new gear is released the old gear becomes irrelevant. It's something you'll get on your alts if you have the time to. But it's hardly a reward for the skilled (and unlucky) players who've put hundreds of hours into STF's and walked out with nothing to show for it.

The lesser skilled but more lucky players will just get the shiny brand new sets and the skilled players who practically live STF's will be wearing old junk. To any sane person it looks like the problem will just start all over again.
Look, Mk XII Sets as they are are not supposed to be attainable in their entirety -- they're supposed to be that one reward that's still out there for people that have everything else. It's the carrot at the end of the stick, if you will. You're never supposed to get the carrot; it's there to keep you playing.

If you could just grind out XII Sets easily, how many people would just be done with this game? A lot.

Cryptic will not ever make the best gear in the game simple to get. They have no interest in doing that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 206
05-07-2012, 06:45 AM
They shouldn't be easy to obtain and thats how it is. I would expect extremely rare gear to be... extremely rare, whether by luck or skill.

What I think would be good, I'm not sure if it works this way, but I think that if you have a full set of the XI gear, and you just happen to get one of the XII, then I think it should work with the XI set as far as completion of the set for the abilitys that come with the complete set.

And has Cryptic ever spelled out the exact math on how loots are dropped? Is it purely random, or are there other factors? I'd expect if you **** them off on the forums, they could make it so *you* don't get any drops, which would serve you right for complaining about something that is randomized. :p

I've just started doing stfs again and I've nearly got enough stuff for a set of the mark XI space gear. If I had already gotten it for the XII gear by now, I'd be a bit disappointed, frankly, because that would mean a bajillion other people already have it.

Not everyone gets a jemhadar ship. Not everyone gets a galor ship. Not everyone will get a XII set. If you do, cudos, if you don't, quit complaining. I only get a few hours a week if that to play, I have no expectations of getting a full set of XII gear .. ever. Thats just how it rolls.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 207
05-07-2012, 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capm View Post
They shouldn't be easy to obtain ...
No one ever said it should be, so that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion taking place. What some people *have* said is that the gear should have a definite value attached to it, even if that value is extremely high. That way everyone is on the same playing field and there is a definite number of STF runs you would have to do to get it. And that way a player's skill and dedication actually matter, not simply their luck.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 208
05-07-2012, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
No one ever said it should be, so that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion taking place. What some people *have* said is that the gear should have a definite value attached to it, even if that value is extremely high. That way everyone is on the same playing field and there is a definite number of STF runs you would have to do to get it. And that way a player's skill and dedication actually matter, not simply their luck.
I think Occam's Razor applies in this scenario. All things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the most correct. The person you're replying to most likely didn't want to read through the preceeding 21 pages of posts and jumped on a post at the end. Without the context, he most certainly missed the point you were later forced to spell out. I don't attribute this to malice on his end so much as laziness.

Skill != Luck. Luck != Skill. /thread
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 209
05-07-2012, 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amuneli
Look, Mk XII Sets as they are are not supposed to be attainable in their entirety -- they're supposed to be that one reward that's still out there for people that have everything else. It's the carrot at the end of the stick, if you will. You're never supposed to get the carrot; it's there to keep you playing.

If you could just grind out XII Sets easily, how many people would just be done with this game? A lot.

Cryptic will not ever make the best gear in the game simple to get. They have no interest in doing that.
This is all kinds of wrong. It also assumes everyone only plays as ONE character. When people commonly have many different types of alts. It also assumes that STFs are the only thing to do in the game. When its not. There's foundry missions, accolade hunting, pvp, hourly events through gated content, etc

But let's just argue that we live in your hypothetical world where none of the above things I stated were true. STFs are the only thing to do and people only have one character. Then they're still doing it wrong. A carrot on a stick is worthless if you never get a little nibble on it from time to time. The Mk XII sets should be aquired through skill or hundreds of hours of time put into the game.

You want to know what they'll have to actually do when people are finally running around in sets of armor they've more than earned? *Gasp* Cryptic will actually have to release NEW SETS and NEW CONTENT! I know this must be some kind of unheard concept to you but this is usually what the standard of the genre is.

Bottom line is,

you

are

full

of

it

Don't you dare defend terrible game design.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 210 Drops
05-07-2012, 09:56 PM
I'm at 234 ground STFs and have four ground proto drops so does that make me lucky , no.

What it means if you do enough you get the gear.

Really for those of us who spent hours in the grind how fair is it to sell the gear for 60, 70, or even 100 data chips.

I think no matter what a few people would complain and expect something for nothing anyway.

Those who post complaints are in the smallest group because the majority of people don't read the forums.

Because if they did ever pug group would get optional every time and every complaint would just go away.

Work work work for it, don't rant rant rant for it.
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