Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 91
05-02-2012, 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidius View Post
Oddly, I think a lot of the ire is over the title of the mission. It's a bit audacious to many; even if it is true to the Lovecraft mythos, it's straight up borrowing the title of one of his stories, which I don't think bodes well with many. Not sure if that invalidates the story more than taking on the role of a different character. Not that I have an opinion either way, having not played the story in question (or any Foundry mission for that matter, to my discredit ).
Ironically, the actual story "The Call of Cthulhu" is NOT based on the experiences of the narrator himself, but rather the characters he encounters and interviews. The personal history of the narrator isnt discussed in any great detail, and the narrator certainly isnt going through any kind of major life change(except until the end of the story).
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 92
05-03-2012, 04:21 AM
Wow...

Back in my first post I told you what I felt was at fault with your mission, but in that same post I also praised your writing skills, and I told you that I looked foreword to what other stories you might wright in the future. I'm going to withdraw those comments now.

You insult the people that don't agree with you, and then, when you're called out on it, you defend yourself with a psychobabble definition that you admit only a select few individuals have access too. You argue that this is the "correct" definition of the term, though you can only access that definition if you're a high level psychology student who has been granted access to that particular website. This comes across as arrogant to an unbelievable degree.

You continually accuse us of not understanding the word Roleplay. While I agree that you have a firm grasp of the core definition of the word Roleplay I think you miss out on the essence of what it means as a verb. To roleplay. Have you ever sat down at a table a played a tabletop RPG, Dungeons and Dragons being the classic? If you have did the DM hand out character sheets and tell the players this is your character? Did the DM hand out personalities and personal histories for those characters? My guess would be no. The DM in those RPGs allow the players to create their own characters, give those characters a personality and history, and then set the stage for the adventure those characters go on. THAT is the essence of what it means to roleplay.

You're wanting to write a static story that the players have little to no real interaction in. That's fine, and if you were writing a fan-fic or a true novel I would probably buy it, read it, and enjoy what I read. God knows it'd have to be better then The Needs of the Many. That was a terribad STO book IMO. As I said in my first post, you seem to tell a good story, you just don't write a good game.

As far as your opinion of artists go... well really I don't really know what to say here. Artists, dreamers, are the backbone of society. Where would we be without Da'Vinci? What would we have learned from the victorian age without artists? These people force society to look beyond the mundane. They teach us that nothing is outside our grasps, and they are the ones that foster inventors to create the technologies that we enjoy today.

Anyway, I digress. I will freely admit that you know more about psychology then I do, however that does not make you a better person then me. Psychology is not my field of study. Medicine is, and I would hazard a bet that I know more about healthcare then you do. There again, that does not make me better then you. It means we are different specialists, but specialists all the same. You'll also note that I don't, typically, flaunt my knowledge that you seem to do in several of your post.

That's all I have to say. Yes, I realize you'll pick this apart with your psychobabble and tell me all the reasons I'm wrong, and that's fine. Just know that because of your attacks on the people who have tried to help you, and your general arrogance, I will not be playing any other foundry missions of yours. Not this one, not ones you've written before, and not the ones you write in the future. I'm washing my hands of you and your confrontational attitude.

Thank you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 93
05-03-2012, 04:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klytemnestra
That is a fair assessment, however it presumes that all Vulcans subscribe to the same philosophy. And we have seen examples of Vulcans in many episodes that do not.

In this story we see the mayor who is of the Surek type of Vulcan. A politician style who displays a proper style Vulcan. We see Dr. Siror, who leans towards the proper Vulcan model behavior, but because he is much older than the other Vulcans at the dinner, he is at a stage of his life where he is questioning those ideals.

Kaliena, who ran away from these teachings out of fear, starts off in the story where here biological nature is coming to terms with youthful arrogance.

She is Vulcan and Human. Also in this story the setting is about 400 years or so after Vulcans have been exposed to Humans.

In our story, we are exploring the idea that the culture of Vulcan is going to move closer to Humans on an Anthropological level.

When we get to the next stage with the Isle of R'lyeh and meet the primitive aborigines who are Vulcans.

We think there is allot of evidence in Star Trek right now that supports this idea.

Because this is a fictional story, we have the ability to explore that in a manner our producers like.

Even Mr. Spock and Surek as they grew older in character, started to move away from the strict stereotypical Vulcan.

Even Spock who tried to be the perfect Vulcan, he was shun by the other Vulcans. The other Vulcans were playful and very proud people. Spock's brother clearly did not follow tradition.

T'Pol's mother didn't subscribe to the strict Vulcan type as you prescribe that we must adhere to.

The truth is that we do not.

I had research some notes that DC Fontana wrote about in the portrayal of Vulcan romance and I am drawing heavily on the book Spock's World.

But on my show I am executive producer and I am the Goddess.

This is every bit the answer I was hoping for, and quite honestly expecting. A simple, rational, and highly logical progression of a people being influenced by outside emotions causing more Vulcan to realize there maybe more of a balance between suppression and integration of emotions.

I still completely stand by all of my original assessments of everything from this thread in my original post, because everyone of them was a strict constructive point.

If this was a true holonovel through and through starting withe the player going to the holodeck and trying to figure out what program they wanted to run then you would have had the benefit of being able to have more of a summary overview that could have better help put people in this "world" you're creating. I think this description you've given of the Vulcan mindset in your time period will really help people better understand parts.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 94 Yes the DM did...
05-03-2012, 08:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikodas View Post
Wow...

Back in my first post I told you what I felt was at fault with your mission, but in that same post I also praised your writing skills, and I told you that I looked foreword to what other stories you might wright in the future. I'm going to withdraw those comments now.

You insult the people that don't agree with you, and then, when you're called out on it, you defend yourself with a psychobabble definition that you admit only a select few individuals have access too. You argue that this is the "correct" definition of the term, though you can only access that definition if you're a high level psychology student who has been granted access to that particular website. This comes across as arrogant to an unbelievable degree.

You continually accuse us of not understanding the word Roleplay. While I agree that you have a firm grasp of the core definition of the word Roleplay I think you miss out on the essence of what it means as a verb. To roleplay. Have you ever sat down at a table a played a tabletop RPG, Dungeons and Dragons being the classic? If you have did the DM hand out character sheets and tell the players this is your character? Did the DM hand out personalities and personal histories for those characters? My guess would be no. The DM in those RPGs allow the players to create their own characters, give those characters a personality and history, and then set the stage for the adventure those characters go on. THAT is the essence of what it means to roleplay.

You're wanting to write a static story that the players have little to no real interaction in. That's fine, and if you were writing a fan-fic or a true novel I would probably buy it, read it, and enjoy what I read. God knows it'd have to be better then The Needs of the Many. That was a terribad STO book IMO. As I said in my first post, you seem to tell a good story, you just don't write a good game.

As far as your opinion of artists go... well really I don't really know what to say here. Artists, dreamers, are the backbone of society. Where would we be without Da'Vinci? What would we have learned from the victorian age without artists? These people force society to look beyond the mundane. They teach us that nothing is outside our grasps, and they are the ones that foster inventors to create the technologies that we enjoy today.

Anyway, I digress. I will freely admit that you know more about psychology then I do, however that does not make you a better person then me. Psychology is not my field of study. Medicine is, and I would hazard a bet that I know more about healthcare then you do. There again, that does not make me better then you. It means we are different specialists, but specialists all the same. You'll also note that I don't, typically, flaunt my knowledge that you seem to do in several of your post.

That's all I have to say. Yes, I realize you'll pick this apart with your psychobabble and tell me all the reasons I'm wrong, and that's fine. Just know that because of your attacks on the people who have tried to help you, and your general arrogance, I will not be playing any other foundry missions of yours. Not this one, not ones you've written before, and not the ones you write in the future. I'm washing my hands of you and your confrontational attitude.

Thank you.
Yes the DM did.

I know because I was the DM. It was not always the case in every story, but in some stories, the DM (me) would let the role players know what the story calls for. Also Kaliena is not of my own design, Joanna Harley who is the coauthor of the story she developed all the characters in the story. Kaliena is a real character in STO. And if you really support freedom of playing characters, then you cannot be opposed to playing a character another author developed for their own story.

Just as you have the freedom to decide what character you wish to play, the producer and director have the right to determine what characters are necessary for their play.

People did not get bent out of shape.

Also, I have not insulted anyone. If people feel insulted, it is not from anything I have written here. If other people use a bad definition from a invalid source material to make a reference then the insult is of their own making. ALso, just because I chose to use a definition that is correct and may be to technical for others to know, that is not a fault on me.

It is no more a fault then the other scientific terms used in Star Trek. So, if the producers of a Star Trek show write a show based on a scientific theory and the terminology they use is interpreted as an insult by a viewer, then does that mean the writer of the show insulted the viewer? No, it means the viewer needs to take more effort in understanding the context of what the writer actually wrote instead of conjuring up another meaning.

Just dismissing it as "psycho-babel" is not enough to infer or justify being insulted simply because a reader does not know the context that a statement was produced.

It would be like if I said, "That issue is not germane to the situation" and the responder replied, "... the damn germans have nothing to do with it."

I presume the people on the forum are intelligent, so I write or make an attempt to write in a manner and means that subscribes to that audience.

Also, I do not see how an insult can be inferred by what I wrote here. I have only stated we wrote the story for extroverted people. That action was taken prior to the post being posted and the story being written. So stating that here can in no way insult anyone here. The decision was made prior to anyone who have posted here.

Also, I have not even stated the people who prefer being their own character is wrong in any way. I only stated that would not work with this story.

How can that be insulting to people who have posted here?

It can't.

Also, I am glad you study medicine, but I have not stated anywhere that I am better than anyone else. I remember writing that we were strange and bazaar.

Also, I liked Needs of the Many. I think all the Star Trek Online stories have been great. And they seem to be getting better as they are moving more in a story driven method and manner. I like that they are moving away from purely combat driven stories to stories that make the player slow down and actually read and understand what is going on in the play.

Also, if you post a comment on a forum designed for an open discussion, then you cannot take the position that when your comment is responded to that it is an attack on to you.

This is a discussion and not a monologue.

If you take the position before I have responded that "it is going to be psycho-babel, then does that not make you the one who is being condescending? Does it not put you in the higher position already.

I take the position that we are equal. You made a statement. Now I can make a statement. I would think a doctor would appreciate writing in a manner and method that allows for open discussion in mature language. However, that may be my arrogance getting the better of me.


But let me pose this question to you.

You state that you want to play a story where you the player would like to be the one in control. I have stated that we wanted to create a story where the player would be in control, but it would not be their character in the story. If we have stated that as the purpose of the story, then why go out of your way to convince us of the idea a story developed so the player is in 100 percent control is better.

Because the discussion here is not about what way is better. The discussion of this thread is about the story we set out to make.

Even though some players have made some strong arguments about why a player based story of their own choosing is better, that argument is not relevant here because we never set out to make that kind of story?

Isn't it arrogance to keep insisting that we have to make a story that is one hundred percent player controlled and player based?
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voicesinthedark View Post
This is every bit the answer I was hoping for, and quite honestly expecting. A simple, rational, and highly logical progression of a people being influenced by outside emotions causing more Vulcan to realize there maybe more of a balance between suppression and integration of emotions.

I still completely stand by all of my original assessments of everything from this thread in my original post, because everyone of them was a strict constructive point.

If this was a true holonovel through and through starting withe the player going to the holodeck and trying to figure out what program they wanted to run then you would have had the benefit of being able to have more of a summary overview that could have better help put people in this "world" you're creating. I think this description you've given of the Vulcan mindset in your time period will really help people better understand parts.
I see holonovel, but I am not sure what that means or implies.

I have not seen anywhere in the Foundry where we are only permitted to follow a format that was displayed on TV when characters entered the holodeck.

With this show we did not set out to make a story for a holonovel. All we did was take a story that we wrote as a group of six people live on stage in the game on a Role Play show night. Then to make a deeper story we took some of the stories Joanna had written on our forum site and I wrote a larger story around all that to combine it into a larger mosaic.

I think it would be a bigger disservice to have removed a character some other character a player made for this show when we did the show live. I think that would be cold.

As for the Vulcan culture, the under lying issue being addressed is anxiety and how it can have influences in peoples lives in a powerful way that a person may not even realize until decades later.

We wanted to see how Vulcan's would deal with anxiety. The entire story takes the audience on that journey in a way we think a player would be able to relate to.

Quote:
If this was a true holonovel through and through starting withe the player going to the holodeck and trying to figure out what program they wanted to run then you would have had the benefit of being able to have more of a summary overview that could have better help put people in this "world" you're creating. I think this description you've given of the Vulcan mindset in your time period will really help people better understand parts
But we felt it would be an even better idea that the player get this information by playing and reading the actual story. No one wants to stand at a mission description and learn everything essential to a story at that moment. If you did that, there would be no reason to play the story. And where is the fun in that? Information like that is best present in a 6 part novel and at the denouement.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Now on the Foundry Call of Cthulhu is now available.

If you like to read dialog out loud, if you like to dress up in fancy outfits, and if you have 1 percent acting ability, then Call of Cthulhu is for you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 97
05-05-2012, 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klytemnestra
I see holonovel, but I am not sure what that means or implies.

I have not seen anywhere in the Foundry where we are only permitted to follow a format that was displayed on TV when characters entered the holodeck.

With this show we did not set out to make a story for a holonovel. All we did was take a story that we wrote as a group of six people live on stage in the game on a Role Play show night. Then to make a deeper story we took some of the stories Joanna had written on our forum site and I wrote a larger story around all that to combine it into a larger mosaic.

I think it would be a bigger disservice to have removed a character some other character a player made for this show when we did the show live. I think that would be cold.

As for the Vulcan culture, the under lying issue being addressed is anxiety and how it can have influences in peoples lives in a powerful way that a person may not even realize until decades later.

We wanted to see how Vulcan's would deal with anxiety. The entire story takes the audience on that journey in a way we think a player would be able to relate to.



But we felt it would be an even better idea that the player get this information by playing and reading the actual story. No one wants to stand at a mission description and learn everything essential to a story at that moment. If you did that, there would be no reason to play the story. And where is the fun in that? Information like that is best present in a 6 part novel and at the denouement.
You've called this a "novel" on several occasions and that is why I was referring to it as a holonovel, same thing as a novel just holonovels are on the holodeck and not a physical book.

the point I was trying to make was somewhere are the very beginning people are missing that this isn't in line with the current time in the game but something set further ahead, and that's why they seem to be confused about how the Vulcans are reacting. by suggesting the mission or holonovel description idea if that was possible it was an attempt to give a suggestion on a possible way to clarify some of this confusion, but I agree it's better in the story. However, with this being such a huge long term story you're trying to do, I think having only this extremely small part of the greater whole is making hard for people to get into it and get the backstory and setting.
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The idea of playing a character other than my own in a story is an interesting one. Others have done similar things, the one which immediately comes to mind involves saving an officer that you have a past with, so the idea of stepping into the shoes of a character isn't completely foreign. However, if I am playing the role of a character, Kaliena, then I should never see another representation of her on screen, unless it is a dream sequence. Having another representation of her on the screen moves me from being actor to audience, a role which I am fine with, but was not expecting. The only suggestion I would make is to either remove the representations of Kaliena on screen, thus leaving the 'actor' as the only one, or modify the overall setup of the story so that the player is instead the audience.

Other then that, the story has interesting qualities, but it needs to be fleshed out. I understand that this is a multi-part story, and I appreciate that, but the content of part one should not be sacrificed. As you have stated several times in this thread, it is your story and you will tell it however you wish, and that is fine. These are only suggestions to make it more accessible to the majority of the player base.

On a more personal level, I would consider re-evaluating the way you approach people. If your behavior through this medium is any indication, you may want to consider a more diplomatic approach, "I see your point, however..." rather than "This is why I am right..." This becomes all the more important if you are actively seeking to work in the field of psychology. And that is coming from someone with their doctorate in the field. You'll also find that a lot of the information you learn in the classroom and from the text books is only applicable on a base level. In order to understand psychology, you must experience people in the myriad of forms that they come in. Trust me, some of them will completely alter your perceptions of what you have learned.

Other than that, best of luck.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan_Kross View Post
The idea of playing a character other than my own in a story is an interesting one. Others have done similar things, the one which immediately comes to mind involves saving an officer that you have a past with, so the idea of stepping into the shoes of a character isn't completely foreign. However, if I am playing the role of a character, Kaliena, then I should never see another representation of her on screen, unless it is a dream sequence. Having another representation of her on the screen moves me from being actor to audience, a role which I am fine with, but was not expecting. The only suggestion I would make is to either remove the representations of Kaliena on screen, thus leaving the 'actor' as the only one, or modify the overall setup of the story so that the player is instead the audience.

Other then that, the story has interesting qualities, but it needs to be fleshed out. I understand that this is a multi-part story, and I appreciate that, but the content of part one should not be sacrificed. As you have stated several times in this thread, it is your story and you will tell it however you wish, and that is fine. These are only suggestions to make it more accessible to the majority of the player base.

On a more personal level, I would consider re-evaluating the way you approach people. If your behavior through this medium is any indication, you may want to consider a more diplomatic approach, "I see your point, however..." rather than "This is why I am right..." This becomes all the more important if you are actively seeking to work in the field of psychology. And that is coming from someone with their doctorate in the field. You'll also find that a lot of the information you learn in the classroom and from the text books is only applicable on a base level. In order to understand psychology, you must experience people in the myriad of forms that they come in. Trust me, some of them will completely alter your perceptions of what you have learned.

Other than that, best of luck.
When we rolled out Call of Cthulhu over the course of the last year, we already had a version where Kaliena as a staged costume was not there. Several of the testers suggested adding her in because it would be too confusing because if people needed to relate to her, then they needed to actually see her.

Also, her in the scene makes for a good anchoring point because if I need to link a different stage to the current map, then she makes a convenient object.

Also, in the show, the player is going to be experiencing the story as a person or from the 4th wall perspective. There are times in the show when you are just a cameraman on stage.

So, your idea was already discussed over the last year, but it was decided not to do it because it proved to be more confusing without her.


Quote:
On a more personal level, I would consider re-evaluating the way you approach people. If your behavior through this medium is any indication, you may want to consider a more diplomatic approach, "I see your point, however..." rather than "This is why I am right..."
What I find interesting is people do not see this view from the reverse angle or perspective.

Approaching people isn't difficult to do. I think it is important to be honest with people and tell them the truth even when they do not want to hear it. The truth is, this is the story we wanted to write. We did not want to write a story that was from any player characters perspective.

That is not a debatable issue. Nor is it a situation where we need to be convinced of another way. We know what we are doing and why. Diplomatic approach is the modern way of stating, "you need to learn how to lie to people's faces better."

When you are the producer and writer of your own show, the show is not decided by 100 person agree. Or the show will never be done. People would spend to much time arguing that their way is best. On my show, my decision is final. People either respect that or they do not.

A good example is like with the current Foundry episode of the month "City of Polmar Ree"

I thought it was a great story and I gave it 5 stars. However it had several flaws.

There was a hugh flaw in the scene where you are talking to the Ambassador in the beginning of the story. The actor on set makes a comment about Vulcans and how they cannot be trusted.

The problem with that there is when my character was on set as the protagonist of the story, I am Vulcan. Why would he tell me a Vulcan that Vulcans cannot be trusted.

That is the problem we are addressing with Call of Cthulhu. When people write these cookie cutter stories, the dialog is not going to fit every character in the game. The story was also written from a male perspective. Now, when I write a comment about "male perspective" I am not sure if people understand what that means.

It is suppose to mean that the dialog are the words that a guy would use when having a dialog with another guy.

In Call of CThulhu we moved away from this deliberately.

I do notice in your critique that you too have only complained that "you cannot be your character in the play." You never mention anything about the story itself. However if you comment is true then what would be different if your character would be in the story.

You suggest if we cut your character in the part then all of a sudden it is a great story. It doesn't work that way. I'm sorry the role calls for a young Vulcan female lead who is pregnant.

We are not sacrificing good storytelling to fit any players ego. My ego doesn't count because I am not an actor in the show...I am the producer. We are boldly going where no Foundry author has gone before.
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# 100
05-08-2012, 09:10 PM
"There was a hugh flaw in the scene where you are talking to the Ambassador in the beginning of the story. The actor on set makes a comment about Vulcans and how they cannot be trusted."

The problem with that there is when my character was on set as the protagonist of the story, I am Vulcan. Why would he tell me a Vulcan that Vulcans cannot be trusted."

Not really a problem. For one there are many examples of such upfront behavior in Star Trek, Enterprise is a good example, Doctor McCoy's light hearted and in some cases insulting jibes at Spock for another. It's not really for us to decide how direct a character can be, it's the writers. It could also be argued he was trying to deflect from his ultimate objective which was far worse than anything the Vulcans may or may not have had in mind. Not really an issue here.

Your idea has merit but your approach leaves a lot to be desired. Whilst I have a habit of getting under people's skin here, they at least know that I don't get defensive over constructive criticism of my missions, which in all honesty is how this thread should have been taken.
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