Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Quote:
Conversations can be very choice-oriented while still maintaining the single ending. In short, the predestined outcome is much easier to swallow because there is the illusion that his choices had an effect. In the long run, will it matter whether the main character decides to bite her tongue or lash out at her dad at dinner? Or whether she tosses her clothes in the hamper or on the floor?
You say “can be” but you mean is “they have to be.” And that is not what Call of Cthulhu is.

Also, it is important to have the toilet scene, the shower, scene, and other light moments because they set up the personal story. It is a side story to the main plot. Each character in the show has to have a personal story. With the scene in Kaliena's room we as an audience get to see the place she grew up in. We get to see how she is off duty and when she is relaxing.

All this helps to bring the audience in to understanding Kaliena's world in a relatable way.

People can relate to being in their room, using the toilet, taking a shower. Talking to people on the phone or video display. People understand how we can be so involved into our own situation that we forget all those other things. I think that helps establish the comedy in the scene. Many players get a chuckle out of that scene, which is a nice moment in the show after the long dinner scene.

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I'm asking you to think about what the holodeck looks like in Star Trek. The players are the main characters; they don't hover behind their shoulder, watching and opening every door for them. The novel can play out, the story can be written, and written well, while still giving the actors choice and freedom.
That is not true. There were many holodeck episodes where the Characters where specific people in history. In the final episode of Enterprise, William Riker walked around as the Chef on NX-01. He talked to the crew and interacted with them throughout the episode while still being a character in the holodeck event. He did not present himself as “I am William Riker because that is my character in the show.”


Data played Sherlock Holmes as it is written in the books. Captain Picard played Dixon Hill.

There is plenty of precedence in Star Trek for characters and actors to step outside their norm. Q sent the crew of Enterprise to be Robin Hood and Worf had to be a Merry man. Jayneway played the Queen.

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I mean, if you didn't want to take advantage of the medium at least a little, why didn't you simply have us stand on the steps of Vulcan and read the whole thing?
You write as if this is my one and only Foundry story. We have plenty of stories in the format you prefer. This is my 12 or 13 story I have written in game.

Because, the first Act is an introductory scene, that means it is a pointer scene that tells the players, audience, and characters…why we are going on the trip…who all these people are…why are they going with us…what will happen if we do not go? Pointer scenes are dialog heavy, they occur early in the story so we can get it out of the way and not have to keep explaining things to people. It is an organized method for providing necessary information. We staged it around a formal dinner because in traditional horror movies and sci-fi movies, that is the classic method to do a pointer soon. We recreated that scene in a traditional way for style. Also, it is the way a Vulcan culture would present a story. Vulcans use rituals and formal ceremonies to tell stories.

We wanted to bring the audience into a Vulcan home and get to see some intimate scenes with in a Vulcan family home away from duty. This also helps to establish the environment as a character in the show and helps compliment Kaliena’s character progression in the story. We as an audience need to understand what world Kaliena grew up in to understand later on just how internalized her psychological struggle is. We started writing this show in November of 2010. Back then we did not have the Foundry. This is a story we created on set on the stages(interior sets) in Star Trek Online.

The story isn’t going to make much sense until you get to the end of the mosaic when you can fit all the pieces together and understand the story.

If you are playing anyone other than Kaliena, then why would you be in a Vulcan home? That doesn’t make any sense. We couldn’t stage 1000 different aliens standins to represent that to every player in the game. Foundry only allows for 250 items on a map. Part of the problem in this story is Kaliena, a young Vulcan woman who is in her 30’s, is coming to a point in her life where her past is catching up to her. Alan Hunt and Cthulhu are using this to further their own agenda. Q is trying to prevent this. But Q cannot interfere directly and Cthulhu cannot interfere directly. They have to manipulate mortal people to achieve their objectives.

See, you want us to take a 20 volume notebook of story and tell you everything to your satisfaction in Act 1. We still have 35 chapters to go. You cannot just sit back and let the story take you on an adventure. If you spend your time playing Foundry stories always looking for problems or ways to bend the story so you can have complete control, then you’re going to end up a neurotic person.

No story on the Foundry puts a player in control of the story. You can only start at point A and go to point B because the writer set the story board that way. You only get to make a decision as what type of button you get to push; dialog, UI button, and object button. Those are your only options. You’re never in control of anything in the Foundry as a player. You may fool yourself into believing you are in control, but you never are in control of anything.

In a Foundry story a player only does this [Read some dialog] + [click a button] = [move to next scene]. Even the ones highly geared with combat, all you are doing is [Read some dialog] + [click a button] = [move to next scene]. It is just done at a faster pace. The only difference in our story than other stories is our dialog is longer. In a novel, the dialog has to be longer. A story can take the view of first person, second person, or third person for verb tenses. We staged this story through the eyes of Kaliena. She is the point of view and the main narrator of the story.

The reason for this is it gives an anchor point for the show for the audience to follow. Not every player is an “I have to be in total control of everything…and I got to know now” style of player. I have played other Foundry stories where we are some other character. I have never found that to be an issue. As long as the story is good. I feel it should be left to the writer to what point of view he or she wants to take in their story that you are choosing to play. Some of us are Extroverted types who enjoy not being in the driver seat and let the author takes us on an adventure.

Thank you
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
04-26-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm pointing out typos and spelling errors to you in a desire to help. Please don't get defensive on me over those.

In fact, please don't get defensive at all. I am genuinely trying to help by pointing out what I feel are errors in the story and presentation. Like I said before, take them as you will, but please don't attack me for them.
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We have tried what you suggested when the town was first laid out. The terrain there will not facilitate your one step solution. We thought it would be cool to have gray and beige tiles set at regular intervals. It also helps to measure out the town when standing on the set. Most other players did not feel this was a big issue.
Fair enough on that limitation. For me, it's a jarring annoyance and serve no aesthetic purpose.

Quote:
This is a colloquial term used by people in that culture.
It's actually a back-formation, and I highly doubt that precise, logical Vulcans would use this dialect.

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Yes, the candles were staged to be floating above the table. In Star Trek, the Vulcans have mastered the technology to defy gravity. Also, the candles are a chandelier.
Alright, but it's odd when they only hover about a foot off the table, and the wax puddles into the sky...

Quote:
I do not need a first lesson.
...
it is not necessary for the player to interpret the imagery.
I thought you were telling a story with characterization. We are in a visual medium. the VISUAL aspect can't simply be ignored. We aren't stupid. The emotional choices of the contact list is VERY MUCH to display anger, sadness, and fear. They work passably well, and I can't think of a single time I've been confused on someone's emotion when those are used with the amount of dialogue that you have.

Quote:
People have annoying habits. That is what Vulcans do.
*snip*
He is in his moment of glory.
Please don't get condescending.

It's not so much him as how his character is written. You have, in action text, "He raises his glass for a toast" and then have him say "I raise my glass for a..." Most scripts don't have those kinds of stage actions, as the actors are clever enough to figure out that if you say you're doing something, you probably are going to be physically doing it.

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I already explained why this occurs, but you need to let go of the idea that the story has to be all about you.
I've got no problem with it being about her. What I have a problem with is this half-hearted insistence that I am both supposed to be playing her, and watching her.

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Also, I am not familiar with persistent tense, In writing you have present, past, imperfect past, perfect past, pluperfect, future, future perfect, infinitive, active voice, passive voice, perfect passive participles, present active participles...
Apparently not familiar with adjectives, however. In my sentence, both persistent and tense modify 'errors.' I mean that you have tense errors, which are persistent throughout the work.

And I am not arguing against dialect. However, you have cast a group of almost entirely Vulcans. They are expected to speak in correct, typically high-class and educated dialect. Grammatical errors like that are not typical.

Quote:
Also, if we did that, then we would deny the players who like to go out and point out what is wrong with a script their fun. Mistakes are good, it is how we learn and grow as a society of writers.
...You're seriously saying that grammar, spelling, and script errors in a finished product are GOOD? Yes, making mistakes is a way to grow, but only when paired with acknowledging them and correcting them. There is a reason that newspapers publish retractions and corrections. They don't leave them in there to provide critics their 'fun.' In fact, as a critic, I find having to point out the simple grammar and spelling stuff rather tedious. I'd much rather address the important bits of a story than its means of conveyance.

Quote:
No, in Enterprise and on Memory Alpha site, the town T’Pol was from was Capitol City.
Ahem... From Memory Alpha:

"Raised in a house near the capital city on Vulcan, young T'Pol had and cared for a pet Sehlat."

Emphasis mine. The capitol city refers to a city which is a capitol. It is NOT the name of the city itself. Besides, you also have 'near' in there. I live near Chicago. This does not mean I live IN Chicago, or that they have any right to claim me.

Quote:
If this is true, then why did you comment about the emotion setting earlier?

Some dialog boxes in the show will have multiple people talking. When we played through the story, we read the script out loud it is helpful to the actors on stage to know when their lines are queued up. Also, when the actors play the show, they often just use the basic script as a starting point and most times change the dialog on stage to fit with their own personality. The identifying marker seems useful to the actors/roleplayers. So we put them in the show here.
They go towards the same thing, in that my opinion is that there should be less staging and non-speech directives in the text boxes.

And your comments are confusing me further. Should I be approaching this as a novel that I'm reading, a play that I'm acting in, a play that I am watching, or a traditional mission?

In regards to passion. I'm asking that the thing be playable for those of us who don't have our acting troupe in STO. If you want me to ignore the dialogue I don't like and mentally insert what I want... Why are you using this format at all?

I have no problems with the dream sequence, actually, except that it could be slightly more... dreamlike. I'm not a big fan of how Alan Hunt is introduced, as 'this character you should already know about.' I don't, and I have no way of knowing it. In a play, characters do not typically get their background and past interactions given to the audience, beyond a VERY basic role in the program, to allow a small bit of anchoring. They certainly don't dump entire past interactions. Instead, those are left for the actors to show via their actions and speech.

I didn't say anything about the difficulty. I found them actually difficult, considering I'm on Elite. Given their placements, there is also no path between your objectives available to not draw aggro. IN fact, given the revelation at the end of the dream, making clearing the station a requirement might not be a bad idea.

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However, if you come away with this should be a holodeck-novel, and then you’re not taking the entire story in consideration in your analysis.
Enlighten me. In a short paragraph, what am I missing?

Quote:
The player needs to know how to speak properly to the toilet.


Go to your room.
Go to your room!

Both are commands. One implies that you are shouting. After a string of them, I got the distinct impression that I was hollering at the toilet like it was hard of hearing. I also understand comic relief. But this small bit struck me as a bit too much of a mood whiplash.

....I fail to understand why an introduction doesn't need player interaction. In a novel, we interact via reading. In TV, we do it by watching. In games, we do it by DOING. There is very little interaction in the introduction.

Quote:
See, in a story here we start from a traditional novel format and over time move to a traditional movie format or TV format and then into a Video game format (MMORPG).
There's a reason that Star Wars Episode I wasn't a novel, then episode II a TV series, episode III a play, and episode IV a video game. These mediums have very different tools at their disposal, very different audiences, and very different expectations and limitations by their format. Jumbling them together produces a hybrid.

What you have here, in fact anything you will do in the foundry, is going to be a video game hybridized with something else. As that, it will already be burdened by having to establish its own rules and style. Constantly shifting them is only going to make things worse.

Quote:
I find it odd that you do not realize that your concerns of not being in control is now confounded when the story does that.
I'm nor confounded by having control, I'm confounded by who I'm put in control OF. Am I Kaliena, or am I my bridge officer? Am I both? Neither?

You've run over an hour of us as a standby observer. You have trained us to expect this. Of COURSE you're going to get confusion and annoyance when you decide to change that.

Quote:
It isn’t a thin excuse.

If they reveal that to you in the first Act, there would be no point in playing the remaining 6 acts. It is called “a clue.”
Just because there is a reason doesn't mean that there can't be a thin excuse. It's the casual way he shrugs off the anomaly, on a planet that's been warp and transporter capable for centuries, that irks me. There is no 'it's unusual, and I've forwarded it to the Vulcan Science committee for investigation' or 'It always happens this time of year' or any other explanation given to us besides 'I don't know.' It doesn't have to be the real one, but it has to satisfy the question of 'Why this seemingly incongruous block?'


Quote:
No, it is clearly stated in the beginning of the story that you are Kaliena. You are only an actor here.
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Jake the Ferengi bartender who happens to go off on exploration missions to get dilithium crystals is not going to be able to step into the role.
You do realize these are contradictory, right? If you want us, the player, to be Kaliena, then you need to allow our avatar to stand in for that person. It's a game of pretend. We're suspending the fact that our avatar Jake the Bartender is not a pregnant half-vulcan woman for purposes of the story.

Having said pregnant half-vulcan woman standing right next to us makes that very difficult.


You also keep talking about playtesters. That's fine. But I am also a playtester. I am giving you this information to do with as you will, given my impressions and how I responded to the work. Don't tell me that I'm wrong when I give you my suggestions, whether you're going to use them or not. It smacks of arrogance and condescension.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
04-26-2012, 12:25 PM
I missed your last post. >.<
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klytemnestra
You say “can be” but you mean is “they have to be.” And that is not what Call of Cthulhu is.
Don't tell me what I mean. I meant exactly what I said. They CAN be. You have many examples in this story where they emphatically aren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klytemnestra
That is not true. There were many holodeck episodes where the Characters where specific people in history. In the final episode of Enterprise, William Riker walked around as the Chef on NX-01. He talked to the crew and interacted with them throughout the episode while still being a character in the holodeck event. He did not present himself as “I am William Riker because that is my character in the show.”


Data played Sherlock Holmes as it is written in the books. Captain Picard played Dixon Hill.

There is plenty of precedence in Star Trek for characters and actors to step outside their norm. Q sent the crew of Enterprise to be Robin Hood and Worf had to be a Merry man. Jayneway played the Queen.
We're having an agreegument. THIS above that you describe is exactly what I'm arguing for. I'm not getting it in your story for two very specific reasons:

1. When Data played Sherlock Holmes, the hologram Sherlock was not standing beside him, doing the actions and speaking.
2. When Riker was the chef, he had full freedom and choice of what he was going to say, when, allowing him to characterize a given character in his own method.

By eliminating choice in the conversations, by adding a physical 'Sherlock Holmes,' you undermine the role of us, the player, interacting with your story. We have no choice in the matter but to interact with the STO world through our character. We can pretend that that character is someone else, if you will get out of your own way and LET us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24 I am not defensive at all...
04-26-2012, 01:25 PM
I am quite calm.

I like to respond to peoples analysis so they have a better frame work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25 Capital City
04-26-2012, 01:38 PM
Okay, as you look up at the information on Vulcan as we did, what was the name of the town?

It does not provide a proper name. So we felt that naming it Capitol City would be fitting since the usage was only going to be in that one sentence when we explain why they changed the name to T'Pol university. Absent of a formal name in canon, we as writer have to provide a name to establish a setting. As the executive producer on our show, I get to decide what that name is because I am God on set.

And it does not really matter since in the show they rename the town after their War Hero Kaliena. It would have been really weird to name the town Fat Jake Ferengie-T'Pol Township.

Since they were honoring the hero from their town and the mayor was presenting the award to her. It seem proper to name the town Kaliena-T'Pol University Township. So the order of names was in historical descendency of the two women from that town.

Also, the scene introduces O'ddysseus who become important later in the show.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Is so we as an audience get to see that Vulcan's are not cookie cutter people. Each of them subscribes to different philosophies of Logic. In this show as the story progresses, that is going to be explained from a cultural aspect in the show for the audience to understand.

Much of this builds off of the back story presented in Enterprise. Also it builds from this book I read called Spock's World.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
We combine all three aspects into this show.

There are times in the show it is novel, there are times in the show where it is movie, and there is time in the show when it is video game.

There are also time sin the show when you are placed in other people. There is a huge part of the story where you play Alan Hunt.

We are not of the opinion that people won't be able to follow the story using that format.

Much of the reason we do this is because the Foundry is limited to a linear story format.

When we use emote dice rolling later on for the love scenes and non-combat encounters in the show.

If we can make a large set map with staged action scenes we will, if we can save production cost by doing it in dialog we will.

If I had my way, their wouldn't even be bridge officers there. However, the game does not allow for that. SO to get into the personal story and conflict of Alan Hunt and Kaliena, we must tell it in dialog.

Ideally, if we could have told the story where one arc was a female and the other was a male we would have done that, but the Foundry is not set up for that.

We had consider making one version of the story as a female and another as a male...so that a player could then know what to outfit for. But, it doesn't make much sense to produce the alternate version if the current version is still being made.

I think when this story is complete with all 6 parts, then it will be the time to make an alternative version for a male character.

In our shows, we get down into the psychology of the character, In Act 2 you are starting to see the beginnings of that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
[Jokes] The first step to enlightenment is to just accept what I write as is...

[not joke]

No, there is no way you can come away with that suggestion or opinion because you have not seen the entire show.

If you have seen all 36 parts then you can make that statement.

It is like we are baking a cake.

I am still putting the flour and sugar together and preparing the chocolate to be used in the batter. And you are saying "I didn't like the way that cake tasted we should make a lemon meringue pie instead."

You have not even seen the plot yet of the story. All you know so far is who the heroes are and who the villains are. You have no idea why the villains are there. When act 2 is over, you are going to have a much better understand of the villains in the story.

All you know now is they discovered the clay bas relief at the ruin two days ago. Which is the 28 February. We have not decided whether we would make it a leap year or not. I am still considering it.

Plots are not introduced until Act II.

The wilderness is a two day journey where the player is going to go explore a remote Vulcan Wilderness.


Spelling and grammar.

Yes we strive for there to be no mistakes in the script. That is not realistic. There will always be typos. I go through the script line by line using the dialog tool. Then I go through the storyboard block by block to look for typos...and they still exist.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29 you make valid points but...
04-26-2012, 02:23 PM
Five other people did not have the same experience as you did.

Why did five other people play the story and come away with an enjoyable experience?

You are suggesting that the story as is a complete failure and no one will ever play it and like it, when five other people had the desired experience we had hoped to create for the show. You're trying to suggest that some crime has been committed because people wrote a story in a format you do not like.

Other people did not get bent out of shape because the toilet was spoken to. Other people did not have a problem with an exclamation point at the end of the sentence to not the person spoke up and gave a command to the toilet.

Me personally, I would never write a comment to someone and tell them I was disturbed that they used a exclamation point in a script that I did not fully understand.

And yes, we can use any style of genre or format in the Foundry. We can use movies, books, cartoons, TV, video games to tell the story.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
04-26-2012, 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klytemnestra
You are suggesting that the story as is a complete failure and no one will ever play it and like it, when five other people had the desired experience we had hoped to create for the show. You're trying to suggest that some crime has been committed because people wrote a story in a format you do not like.
Blowing things a bit out of proportion. I never said any of that. That you think that's what I was implying hints to me you might be getting defensive. I'm not attacking your work. I'm saying that it doesn't work for me. And if it doesn't work for me, there are probably others (like, I imagine, Grand Nagus) for whom it also doesn't work.

No crime has been committed. I'm not bent out of shape. I simply gave you my impression based solely on the information I can get from the mission itself. Ignore it or use it as constructive criticism to make your story better or write me off as a loon. I don't care which you choose.

I genuinely think that my suggestions will make the piece, as a whole, flow much more smoothly. If you disagree, that's your prerogative. I can't make you change it.

Good day.
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