Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
04-30-2012, 09:22 PM
I will freely admit that you are more studied in the subject of psychology than I am. However I think most people consider the term neurotic to have a negative connotation, so unless you are having a technical discussion with students or colleges, you should take common perception of the term into consideration when using it.

That said, this subject is highly off topic to the actual subject of the thread(your mission), and I should not have started discussing it in detail. I do think that whether you realize it or not, you are taking the comments in this thread too personally, and are also responding too personally whether you intend to or not. Because of that, I am going to take my leave from this thread.

Despite my personal preferences regarding your mission, you are obviously a talented writer and mission builder, so I wish you good luck with the mission.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
05-01-2012, 01:37 AM
Edited : Removed my post because i realized I just don't care enough about either your opinions or your mission to continue posting in this thread.

Cheerio !
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
05-01-2012, 07:02 AM
Personally, I'm not interested at all in a foundry story that I can't be a part of as my own character. So, thats one more bad review you'll be spared since I have "0" interest in playing "your" character.

...carry on.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
A responder has recently suggested that designing a story for a neurotic type person is a negative comment towards people who are only stating their honest criticism in response to the statements we have posted up on the forum here. However, neurosis and neurotic are not the same thing.

A neurotic type of person is a personality type or trait. In contemporary times psychologist are moving away from the categorical description of personalities.
Psychology is moving towards a model that fits a multidimensional and multi-factor model. Which is how we arrived at one idea for a model known as the BIG 5, or OCEAN.

The use of neurotic in personality traits is an adjective that describes a psychological factor of a person that leans towards a nature of anxiety.

What does that mean?

In the OCEAN model which means:

O- Openness - Artistic, curious, imaginative, insightful, original, wide interests, unusual thought process, intellectual interests
C - Conscientiousness - Efficient, organized, planful, reliable, thorough, dependable, ethical, productive
E - Extraversion - Active, assertive, energetic, outgoing, talkative, gesturally expressive, gregarious
A - Agreeableness - Appreciative, forgiving, generous, kind, trusting, noncritical, warm, compassionate, considerate, straightforward
N - Neuroticism - Anxious, self-pitying, tense, emotionally unstable, impulsive, vulnerable, touchy, worrying

These five terms that was developed by Gordon Allport in 1936 went through the dictionary and found 18,000 terms used to describe human behavior. However, he discovered that many of these labels had described the same thing. So building this theory or model design to measure personality and building off the work of Raymond Cattell (1970). Cattell developed a model which is named the Sixteen Personality Factor Questionnaire, or 16PF (Cattell, Ebet, & Tatsuoka, 1970).

These psychologist used a technique known as factor analysis to develop their model.

Building off this work, Paul Costa and Robert McCrae simplified the work into the Big-Five model (McCrae & Costa, 2004)

In the diagnostic manual the DSM IV TR, is divided into 5 areas called Axis.

Axis 1 is for Clinical disorders
Axis 2 is for Personality Disorders and Mental Retardation
Axis 3 is General Medical Conditions
Axis 4 is Psychosocial and Environmental Problems
Axis 5 is Global Assessment of Functioning Scale

That list looks important, so what does it mean?

Because the DSM IV is a diagnostic manual used as a reference guide to help a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist help diagnose a presenting person for the purpose of treatment.

Personality is its own subfield in Psychology.

The labels used to model personality are just names used to give the trait a name. In this case "neurotic" which is a adjective (It describes what kind of trait the person has on the measuring scale).

Neurosis is a broad term that is no longer used because it is to broad of a term. Also it is an noun.

Because contemporary psychology is moving away from these "grand theories" models or one explanation for everything, the term "neurosis" cannot be used in a clinical diagnosis or as a clinical definition.

In science and in psychology, we use operational definitions, which are supported by empirical evidence from scientific studies. A dictionary is designed to be used by a layman. The definitions are fine for a common and broad use, but it is not acceptable as a tool for defining operational definitions.

Neurosis starts from anxiety, but it is a very different thing to say "he is a neurotic type of player" versus "the player has developed a neurosis or the players neurosis contributes to his Axis 2 diagnosis in the DSM IV."

I think a good analogy to use would be like if I stated, "We designed the story for people who are blue" and then he respond with a statement "that is terrible, people who are blue cannot help themselves, they are depressed."

In the first statement we were describing people with blue skin (Andorian, Smurf). But the responder was talking about a mental condition of the player who is sad or depressed.

Though the two words are the same and spelled the same way, the context of the discussion describe two different things.

Writing about someone's personality trait of being a neurotic is not a reference for mental disorder. Nor does it suggest that a person has a mental disorder.

Because dictionary terms are common terms used by a mass of people they do not have the strict and precision that a operational definition has. What defines the operational definition is the scientists who conducted the study. In this case Gordon Allport, Raymond Cattell, Paul Costa, and Robert McCrae.

That is the only source you can use to define what the operational definition is that these scientist used in their studies.

Second point:

We derive the term mainly from the field of Motivation, which is also a subfield of Psychology.

In Motivation research, people are one of two types: Extraversion and Neuroticism.

Extroversion describes people who are "happy" nature people. What defines a extraversion is three facets: sociability, or preference for and enjoyment of other people and social situations, assertiveness, or a tendency toward social dominance, and the last facet is venturesomeness, or tendency to seek out and enjoy exciting, stimulating situations.

People who are extroverted types are people who dress up in squirrel suits and leap off of a bridge and skim close to the ground at an incredible velocity or a person who would go to a casino to bet all their money on a slot machine because they have nothing better to do.

Neurotic people are non-happy people. The best character to describe this is Eeyore. These folks are perfectly happy to watch other people ride a roller-coaster or leap off of a bridge in a squirrel suit. These people are high in anxiety and like peace and quiet settings. These folks do not care to dress up in outlandish wardrobe or have someone else place them into a role that is not of their own making.

Those two terms were defined by Motivational Psychologist, However, they model a measurable factor that are biological systems in the human brain known as the Behavioral Activation System (BAS) and the Behavioral Inhibition System (BIS).

They are real and measurable factors of the human brain.

Also, they are not insults used to describe people that do not like our stories.

The poster or replier is not using the terms correctly in his comprehension of the written statements. The poster is deriving a meaning from a skewed understanding of what was stated here because he or she is using a reference tool that is not valid for an operational definition.

Thank you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 75 On a side note...
05-01-2012, 01:18 PM
Aren't my post pretty?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Originally Posted by sharyssa
Personally, I'm not interested at all in a foundry story that I can't be a part of as my own character. So, thats one more bad review you'll be spared since I have "0" interest in playing "your" character.

...carry on.
If you are not interested, then why post that here?

It seems strange to post a message to a article about a story written for a specific audience that you do not care to play. The purpose of the article is that it is a press release to the wider audience that is looking to play these types of stories. The press release is to inform people of the nature of the story so they do not waste their time playing a story that does not fit within their Foundry story preference.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 77
05-01-2012, 02:59 PM
In any other social medium not regulated by be nice or get banned, the most common question would simply be "What in the hell are you smoking??" And that is strictly in regards to everything posted in the forum thread.

1) The foundry by concept and execution is designed to allow players to create and share content with other players of the community. Player reviews and critiques are a fundamental part of the foundry as a whole.

2) Holonovels in Star Trek have been shown numerous times to be adaptable for the specific person running the program. The Foundry simply doesn't allow for the branching, adaptation that the holodecks do in ST, and that is something people need to consider in that you have no choice but to dictate a specific character to fit the context of your story.

3) I mean this in absolutely no offensive way, but all the the interactions with everyone have come off as a perfect example of when someone with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and Bipolar try to rationalize their obsessive traits to any overwhelming degree. Actually a lot of people could learn a lot about writing good dialogue from reading everything in this thread.

4) Logic aside, you're assigning too many emotional traits to Vulcan characters when in actuality the only Vulcan character who should be displaying any emotion is Actually you're lead, because she is pregnant and we all know pregnancy increased biochemistry that heightens emotional responses. Even the most highly disciplined Vulcan mind would be susceptible to emotions. However, Vulcans use logic and discipline to suppress their emotions, so any other Vulcans expressing emotions other than under severe stress is inappropriate and seems to be something several people have tried to express.

5) Speaking purely from the perspective of a published writer, you're writing is ****, my writing is ****, every writers is ****. Why you ask, because every writer worth anything knows that a work is never done, it is only done enough for now. You could take something you wrote five minutes ago or twenty years ago and pick it apart, finding things you would change. This is what it means to be a writer, and a good one. You're problem is you think your work is perfect and there is absolutely nothing that needs to be changed or could be changed for the better.

6) A true artist, no matter the medium, has the ability to create something from nothing, and when that piece is finished to the degree they want, they are able to share it with every individual and have every one of those individuals touched in an extremely personal, extremely powerful way. Everything has already been done in one way or another, so it is only natural that writers for example are going to have a piece or two seem like something someone else wrote. That doesn't take away from the beauty or power of their work or the emotion they convey with their words.

7) There have been many examples discussed in this thread where you have excessive amount of fluff. For example you state how there is a toilet and shower in every room because Vulcans are very individualistic. You're throwing civilized behavior, aesthetics, privacy, and many other aspects completely out the figurative window in an attempt to convey trait when in fact you are de-establishing several others.

8) Good game design, along with any type of set designs relies soley on what objects fit that particular area, is this something this set/area really has to have, is everything in this set/area they for a purpose or is it just so much clutter, if it's just clutter, does it add to the scene or is it distracting from it. This has already been answered numerous times by several people that have mentioned the floating candles. There is more about why the candles are floating then about the environment in the scene overall, therefore they are simply clutter distracting from the scene. Now if they were modified so they were not floating then candles would add several different possible emotional queues to the scene.

9) DON'T EVER disrespect someone that is considered to be a well respected or experienced person like you have several times in this thread. Not only is it rude and shows a huge and total lack of maturity on your part, but most importantly it is a missed opportunity to gain in-site from someone that has more experience than you and is so willing to help you and everyone else for that matter not only succeed, but to create or do the best they possibly can.

10) If you don't like that the community is going to give feedback to something that yet again is solely based in being shared with that community and experienced by the community then simply don't do it, or do it for your friends or your fleet.

Now as I'm sure that all of this will be completely ignored or defensively argued back upon as you have been doing despite if you can realize that or admit to that, I have no expectations that any of this will be taken in the purely helpful manner in which it was intended. Overall you have missed out on many possibly opportunities to learn, grow, change, and accept insight and advice from your peers and elders. For that all I can say is that is truly a shame, for our ability to learn and grow is one of the few greatest traits we humans have.

You'll also note that nowhere in any of this did I mention what I specifically thought of your mission. That is simply because I haven't played it yet, honestly this thread was so entertaining and pathetic at times as well that I got so caught up in it. Being the person I am, I will play this mission and I personally look forward to taking on a holonovel role that is not with my own characters. Please know that when I do play this, it will be as a completely unbiased player, playing a story that was created with the best intentions of one of my fellow game playing peers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 78
05-01-2012, 06:42 PM
Is this fight STILL going on?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 79
05-01-2012, 06:44 PM
I'm fine if a Foundry mission forced me to wear a different uniform / restricted me to using particular gear / weapons, but forcing me to *be* a character other than my player captain?

I think I'll pass on this one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 80
05-01-2012, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by sumghai
I'm fine if a Foundry mission forced me to wear a different uniform / restricted me to using particular gear / weapons, but forcing me to *be* a character other than my player captain?

I think I'll pass on this one.
I like this guy already.

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