Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
04-26-2012, 03:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
The only thing that frustrates me is when they introduce things like the Odyssey, which is clearly OP and continue to let such top of the line ships like the Sovereign and the Galaxy be slightly below par.

The Galaxy-R should be every bit as good at tanking as the Odyssey, but it is not.
Actually, given that there are decades between the two and the Odyssey is supposed to be the most modern cruiser in Starfleet, it stands to reason it would be better at taking damage than a Sovereign (latest in shields and hull design, ect.). And the Galaxy is even older, so it's much more believable that the Odyssey outperforms it.

Even with the massive modifications seen on the Galaxy-X (which I think we can agree is the ultimate extent that Starfleet Corps of Engineers could take the Galaxy hull), the ship is still a decades-old design by the time of STO, and the changes in material, systems, and hull design that supposedly make the Odyssey better than the ships before it are not all going to be possible to be refit into the Galaxy without completely changing the design far past the Galaxy-X and making it....an Odyssey.

As I said, there is a purpose to each class, and their designs bear that out. The Galaxy is built as a long-range exploration vessel with standard warp engines and generous scientific facilities for a cruiser. The Refit can be expected to have upgraded some of the systems to more modern versions and added slightly to the weapons systems' capabilities (up to their maximum sustainable tolerances), but that's about it (hence the 'refit' and not 'redesign' designation). Starfleet is still going to keep the Galaxy in its role because that is where it fits in their fleet organization and more drastic changes are not needed (other classes fill this role)

I know everyone wants their favorite ship class to be the 'ubermonstermasher' in the game and to have Constitution-class ships able to wipe out Doomsday Machines in a single shot (or at least easily match ships built with centuries-more-advanced knowledge), but that's just a video game player's viewpoint and misses that STO happens in (supposedly) a world where ships have limits and fleets have to spend long years laying down hulls to replace older ones and do different things. Starfleet's engineers don't look at a Miranda-class ship and say 'This ship should be given eight more warp nacelles! That would be l33t!!!'. They look at a Miranda-class and say 'Yes, the design has its limits, but we need ships that can operate in those limits and this ship is much more economical to produce compared to the planets-worth of resources it would take to build a brand-new Imperal-class star cruiser to do those jobs'.

Honestly, there are enough ships in the game now that there is probably a design out there close to what you want (barring the 'give me a ship that is better at everything than everything else and make it pink!' attitude).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
04-26-2012, 06:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
Basically, it is done for gameplay reasons. By all rights, a B'rel class BoP should not be blowing up Soverigns and Galaxies, but I do it all the time in Ker'rat.

To make it a fun game, you have to have some sort of balance.

The only thing that frustrates me is when they introduce things like the Odyssey, which is clearly OP and continue to let such top of the line ships like the Sovereign and the Galaxy be slightly below par.

The Galaxy-R should be every bit as good at tanking as the Odyssey, but it is not.
I will say that the Galaxy-R is subpar compared to a Sovreign or a Star Cruiser, not just the Odyssey. And for a ship that costs 1600 points it's a real shame as it should be at least an equal. But let's try to steer this back to the original posters topic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
04-26-2012, 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danqueller
Actually, given that there are decades between the two and the Odyssey is supposed to be the most modern cruiser in Starfleet, it stands to reason it would be better at taking damage than a Sovereign (latest in shields and hull design, ect.). And the Galaxy is even older, so it's much more believable that the Odyssey outperforms it.

Even with the massive modifications seen on the Galaxy-X (which I think we can agree is the ultimate extent that Starfleet Corps of Engineers could take the Galaxy hull), the ship is still a decades-old design by the time of STO, and the changes in material, systems, and hull design that supposedly make the Odyssey better than the ships before it are not all going to be possible to be refit into the Galaxy without completely changing the design far past the Galaxy-X and making it....an Odyssey.

As I said, there is a purpose to each class, and their designs bear that out. The Galaxy is built as a long-range exploration vessel with standard warp engines and generous scientific facilities for a cruiser. The Refit can be expected to have upgraded some of the systems to more modern versions and added slightly to the weapons systems' capabilities (up to their maximum sustainable tolerances), but that's about it (hence the 'refit' and not 'redesign' designation). Starfleet is still going to keep the Galaxy in its role because that is where it fits in their fleet organization and more drastic changes are not needed (other classes fill this role)

I know everyone wants their favorite ship class to be the 'ubermonstermasher' in the game and to have Constitution-class ships able to wipe out Doomsday Machines in a single shot (or at least easily match ships built with centuries-more-advanced knowledge), but that's just a video game player's viewpoint and misses that STO happens in (supposedly) a world where ships have limits and fleets have to spend long years laying down hulls to replace older ones and do different things. Starfleet's engineers don't look at a Miranda-class ship and say 'This ship should be given eight more warp nacelles! That would be l33t!!!'. They look at a Miranda-class and say 'Yes, the design has its limits, but we need ships that can operate in those limits and this ship is much more economical to produce compared to the planets-worth of resources it would take to build a brand-new Imperal-class star cruiser to do those jobs'.

Honestly, there are enough ships in the game now that there is probably a design out there close to what you want (barring the 'give me a ship that is better at everything than everything else and make it pink!' attitude).
The problem though is that for the game to work, you have to accept that canon gets thrown out the window. Per canon, the Sovereign and the Galaxy ships should basically be "I win" buttons and the more modern Odyssey, by extrapolation, should be an even bigger "I win" button.

For game-play reasons, Cryptic has obviously decided to balance all the T-5 ships so that, while they have different strengths and weaknesses, they are about equally powerful.

The biggest issue though is that the T-5 balance is not working right. My case in point examples are the Galaxy-R and the Odyssey.

Right now, the Odyssey is significantly OP compared to other cruisers and the Galaxy-R is significantly UP. If this game is changing from one where you fulfill your Star Trek fantasy to one where you need to buy whatever the latest and greatest $50 purchase from the C-store is to compete then it is a game that, in my opinion, will no longer be worth playing.

Everything being equal, any two given T-5 ships should be about equally powerful, but they are not.

I do not think we should be able to select BOFF stations like the OP suggests, but I do think Cryptic needs to make sure that all the T-5 ships are on approximately equal footing so we can fly the ships we want to fly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
04-26-2012, 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak

Everything being equal, any two given T-5 ships should be about equally powerful, but they are not.

I do not think we should be able to select BOFF stations like the OP suggests, but I do think Cryptic needs to make sure that all the T-5 ships are on approximately equal footing so we can fly the ships we want to fly.
I agree with the general idea that T-5 ships should be 'equal but different', but there are limits on how different they can make each ship in the current system. Especially when various T-5 ships cost different amounts to purchase, and all anyone seems interested in are the combat stats.

Imagine what would happen if tomorrow they released a T-5 Sovereign class that matched the Dreadnaught and Odyssey, and was purchasable in the game for only 100,000 EC, or even for free with any ship purchase token. You'd see an outcry of rage from all of the people who grinded the dilithium or put out actual money to support the game that they'd been given the shaft. Or, if they produced an Enterprise +1 that could match a Dreadnaught in firepower and tanking, while still keeping all of the manueverability the baseline ship....would that seem reasonable given that the Enterprise (Constitution II) class is clearly a much smaller ship built to a design that was itself a rebuilding of a hull almost a century old before the Galaxy ever took flight?

The alternative is to give all of the T-5 ships basically the same stats, and adjust them all to cost 2000 c-points. Period. That would allow for all T-5 ships to be on equal footing at the cost of putting them out of the reach of some players who can't afford a full 2000 c-point ship. As it is now, players can purchase lower cost ships that still have a pretty good chance against the top-line ships (depending on player and equipment of course). They may not have all the bells and whistles of a max-cost ship, but they aren't exactly cripples either.

Don't forget, the Galaxy Pack is coming out, and might include changes for the Galaxy-R, so we'll have to see what it looks like after that before we know if the devs would be open to any suggestions here. It could be they -will- upgrade the price to 2000 c-bills and give the Galaxy-R the same stats as an Odyssey-O. We'll just have to see. Right now, we're shooting ideas without much data to go on as to what will happen to the design.

But all that aside, I agree that the OP about being able to customize your BOFF positions would be the wrong way to go, and only make more problems than it solved (if it solved any). Ultimately, the challenge in any game is how well you work with your limitations, not how many of them you can get removed.

My own two cents.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
04-26-2012, 04:48 PM
I think they need to fix what's broke. first and foremost, I think escorts are too survivable. for the massive DPS they throw out they should be GLASS cannons not aluminum ones. and for god's sake FIX THE SCIENCE POWERS
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