Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
05-24-2012, 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
I tend to fly only Tac Commander Boff for BoPs/Brels. Mostly b/c there are better ships for Tac Com/ Tac Lt Comm layouts in terms of Weapon slots and Tac Consoles and I tend to use standard CRF builds for damage.

For my Tac I've been messing around with the Lt Com slot for TB3. It basically lets you chain TBs while outlasting most TB counters. A key is to use the TB before your 1st strike. This should result in more hits and Crit hits. It also will boost Teammate/PuGmate's damage assuming they wait for your TB.

If your 1st strike isn't successful you can quickly eng batt & evasive out (assuming you're under fire), recloak and comeback for a 2nd strike w/CRF2 and most of you cap powers still up.

I do only PuG matches for the most part, so take the above a/grain of salt.
I had to think about this for a bit and I think I hurt something, but here goes.

Everything you said is true, especially as you limited it to pug matches. That's a good comfort zone so let's stick to that. You can achieve all that you said just by using a TB1 though and maintaining the rest of the build I posted. But that build can easily do enough damage to vaporize a Kitty Box as it is so that's why I run it. I dropped the TB, and picked it up, and dropped it, and picked it up. Why? Because it was like a signal light saying "Hey there's an attack coming". And that gives a good enough player time to activate proper defenses. And that spoils the effect. A lesser player may not activate defenses, but you don't need TB to crit them to death anyways. A good player won't be falling to your follow up as they are sure to maintain any defenses they activated. A lesser player will, but if they are still alive at that point they must be very lucky.

On any other ship, especially one without battle cloak, tb is great. Those ships are designed to be out in the open taking hits and generally flying about being....ship like. They can play the waiting game of "oh hay I just used my TB and you popped omega so....imma wait a bit while you zip around". In a BOP its best if you just wait and watch for them to exhaust their defenses or to just be unprepared and vaporize them before they even know you are there.

Keep in mind that's just Tac. Sci captains and sci Boff layouts are out there. Probably with commander sci and ltc tac just for THY3 or BO3 but those ships use abilities to strip buffs and disable shields that your avg tactical officer won't have access to.

So in short my experience with TB says you are right, but that it does add extra opportunity to alert your target to your attack allowing defenses to go up. Even correctly timed, as you said, TB has to land first or you won't get the crit chance. In an extended fight its great. Its much more effective. I just tend to avoid extended fights. I have a fragile hull and tiny little nacelles. They dent easily.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
05-24-2012, 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thissler
I had to think about this for a bit and I think I hurt something, but here goes.

Everything you said is true, especially as you limited it to pug matches. That's a good comfort zone so let's stick to that. You can achieve all that you said just by using a TB1 though and maintaining the rest of the build I posted. But that build can easily do enough damage to vaporize a Kitty Box as it is so that's why I run it. I dropped the TB, and picked it up, and dropped it, and picked it up. Why? Because it was like a signal light saying "Hey there's an attack coming". And that gives a good enough player time to activate proper defenses. And that spoils the effect. A lesser player may not activate defenses, but you don't need TB to crit them to death anyways. A good player won't be falling to your follow up as they are sure to maintain any defenses they activated. A lesser player will, but if they are still alive at that point they must be very lucky.

On any other ship, especially one without battle cloak, tb is great. Those ships are designed to be out in the open taking hits and generally flying about being....ship like. They can play the waiting game of "oh hay I just used my TB and you popped omega so....imma wait a bit while you zip around". In a BOP its best if you just wait and watch for them to exhaust their defenses or to just be unprepared and vaporize them before they even know you are there.

Keep in mind that's just Tac. Sci captains and sci Boff layouts are out there. Probably with commander sci and ltc tac just for THY3 or BO3 but those ships use abilities to strip buffs and disable shields that your avg tactical officer won't have access to.

So in short my experience with TB says you are right, but that it does add extra opportunity to alert your target to your attack allowing defenses to go up. Even correctly timed, as you said, TB has to land first or you won't get the crit chance. In an extended fight its great. Its much more effective. I just tend to avoid extended fights. I have a fragile hull and tiny little nacelles. They dent easily.
Fyi, I should have been more clear on the quick in & out and other thoughts behind it. I may very well select another target on my 2nd run. This depends on too many things to really get into detail on though. Also, I usually select what seems to be the biggest threats as my targets (usually escorts, but sometimes carriers just to clear their spam by killing them).

I find most pugs only have 2 damage dealers at most worth worrying about. When they die, I don't have to leave the field of battle since I have enough boff/doff stuff to keep my alive. This is because I have at least 5 Boff powers I can chain for repairing shields/hull/boost resists (7 minus the 2 Tbs). If I used Lt Com for Tac I lose this ability since I'll have only 4 powers and 3 if I have a TB. With the cross healing being what it is I prefer to have some staying power if I can to keep up on the DPS pressure.

So, w/escort(s) dead I can turn the chaining tbs onto cruisers & scis. W/support from a pugmate or 2 I find at least one of the support ships can be taken out before the escorts get back. By then I can evasive + max engine power away and start over if attacked by high dps.

To be honest I think I'm quick enough w/decloak->TB->space bar to leave little room for reaction time on the 1st volley unless they were preboosting their defenses in which case I'd probably find another target. Also, worst case I run and pick someone else on my 2nd approach in a fairly short time frame. Some of the other combos w/higher spike potential can have a full 60 second cooldown before you can try again.

Still, I've just been messing around w/TB3. The TB global cooldown starts when TB is activated. This means if TB3 is on a target the entire time it's only 3 sec before I can pop the second TB. However, I should have suggested 2x TB1 w/higher heals or adding another CC (eg GW or EWP)/interupt (PSW) in the LtC spot though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
05-25-2012, 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quatin2
Thanks for the detailed post.

I'm doing pretty well with the all cannon build already, so I don't want to change that much. I end up in the top 2 damage in PUGS on arena most of the time. I don't know if the quality of the PUG is just that low or I'm actually doing that well. Therefore, I wanted to respec to see if I can take advantage of Flow Capacitors using Tachyon + Tet Gliders as well as maximize power usage. What really confuses me right now is the Shield/Eng/Aux/Weap power skill.

In my posted build I have 3 Aux, 6 Weapon, 9 Shields, 6 engine.
Aux: 54 9000 pnts
Wea: 84 18000 pnts
Shi: 99 24300 pnts
Eng: 84 16200 pnts

That's 321 points for 67,500 points.

If I optimize for max points 6 Aux, 6 Weapon, 6 Shields, 6 engine.
Aux: 84 18000 pnts
Wea: 84 18000 pnts
Shi: 84 16200 pnts
Eng: 84 16200 pnts

That's 336 points for 68,400 points. An extra 900 points buying me 25 skills.

Since I need all 4 systems, would it be better to do it the latter way and use the power distribution system to get to the power profile I need? Or are the bonus power based on what your power system is set to?
Between EpTx, Warp Core Eng Doff you should have enough power that you don't need to invest as heavily into Eng Power Skills. If you're using plas leech console even less so. I'll have to check my build for more details and get back to you.

Generally, for Eng, I'd put some in drive coil (you can have ~34 power to systems when @ full impulse w/it), sub system repair 3-6, hull hp 9, hull resists 3-6 (depending on SPs available you can make up w/hazzard doffs), 3-6 in the skill that boost all power, maybe 3 in efficiency, maybe 3-6 in shields/engine performance, max thruster skill (the one that boosts your regular speed), 3-6 in battery boosting, nothing in weapon/aux performance (just not w/the high end SPs imo).

For sci, Flow Caps boosts a lot of things and it's low SP investment tier, so I'd not worry about maxing it. I'd have at least 3 points in power insulators, dampners, and subsystem repair. Have some spare consoles to swap in to bump those skills as needed, but I wouldn't evest more then 3 certainly not more then 6 in those. Other then shield skills I'd only consider boosting the stun duration skill or charge particale and only if you like builds which take advantage of those skills.

For Tac I think the only things I would hold off on max are cloak (none), threat gen (3-6 luxuary points), attack patterns (6-9). I think max everything else, I'll have to check though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
05-25-2012, 12:38 AM
I'd just suggest doing a lil research on tribble or redshirt on the numbers on your spec. Just an example which is a good one for any category across the board is your science healing category. If you Notice with the heals try 3, 6, and 9 and you will notice the amount of Health it heals is very very small usually about 1-3 points for each increment. In a lot of cases 3 is fine except where you might need to max it out like say your ground damage ground weapons and space damage for energy and projectiles.

As far as tact builds which most people may go for the escort or bop for those in point of this thread. As for bop I like to keep mine looking and feeling canon so I go either all cannons (turrets included in the rear) and sometimes 1 torpedo unless its an all projectile b'rel. Your rapid fires depending on which you use give a damage % boost per level you go up as in 1,2, and 3. Best overall DPS or BPS(Burst Per Second) is a rapid fire 2 and 3 mixed with some various attack patterns I've gone with one of each and used 2 purple projectile doffs to simulate the high yields using photons.

With a bops defense though a delta as one of the three, having an omega and polarize to counter tractors, a hazard emitter and enough engineering to keep shields and hull alive for 20 seconds is pretty standard setup I use since its hit and run style ship.

I've found a lot of ppl have trouble with bops and tend not to use them but those who do love the heck out of em. Right now the main ships I like to use are the b'rel most of all, and bortasqu' and the carriers. As for anyone who found they always loved it when they saw Klingons in Tv episodes or movies though even as undeveloped as it is its a hands down faction to play (In most cases though it takes a true Klingon Lore fan to get into the faction).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
05-25-2012, 03:46 AM
i use a differnet appoach...

my TAC on the Heavy BoP:

3xDualHeavy Polaron, 1xQuantumTorp,2xPolaron Turret

Tac-cmdr: TorpSpread1,CSV1,TorpHY2,CRF3
Sci-Lt-cmdrH1,HE2,PSW1
Sci-Lt: ST1,TSS2
Eng-Lt: EMP2S 1 + 2

its a mix of heavy single target dmg, some moderate AoE-dmg, healing/tanking, and the PSW for Alpha-strike-Stun out of cloak or to release me from TB (knocked back enemies loose the lock with tractorbeam while hit by PSW).

i prefer more healing on my BoPs, thats why i only have a Cmdr-Tac-station.

also, while setup have proven, that it fits my playstyle, i adopted it my other BoPs:



Eng-BoP (3xDualHeavy Plasma, 1xPlasmaTorp,2xPlasmaTurret)
Tac-Cmdr: THY1,THY2, CRF2, CRF3 or TS1,CSV1,TS3,CSV3
Eng-Lt-Cmdr:EP2S1 + 2, EWP1
Lt.-Sci: PH1,HE2
Lt.-Sci: ST1,TSS2


Sci-BoP (3xDualHeavy tetryon, 1xPhotonTorp,2xTetryonTurret)
Tac-Cmdr: THY1+2. CRF2+3 or TS1+2,CSV2+3
Sci-Lt-cmdr: PH1,HE2,GW1
Sci-Lt: ST1,TSS2
Eng-Lt: EMP2S 1 +2
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
05-25-2012, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
Fyi, I should have been more clear on the quick in & out and other thoughts behind it. I may very well select another target on my 2nd run. This depends on too many things to really get into detail on though. Also, I usually select what seems to be the biggest threats as my targets (usually escorts, but sometimes carriers just to clear their spam by killing them).

I find most pugs only have 2 damage dealers at most worth worrying about. When they die, I don't have to leave the field of battle since I have enough boff/doff stuff to keep my alive. This is because I have at least 5 Boff powers I can chain for repairing shields/hull/boost resists (7 minus the 2 Tbs). If I used Lt Com for Tac I lose this ability since I'll have only 4 powers and 3 if I have a TB. With the cross healing being what it is I prefer to have some staying power if I can to keep up on the DPS pressure.

So, w/escort(s) dead I can turn the chaining tbs onto cruisers & scis. W/support from a pugmate or 2 I find at least one of the support ships can be taken out before the escorts get back. By then I can evasive + max engine power away and start over if attacked by high dps.

To be honest I think I'm quick enough w/decloak->TB->space bar to leave little room for reaction time on the 1st volley unless they were preboosting their defenses in which case I'd probably find another target. Also, worst case I run and pick someone else on my 2nd approach in a fairly short time frame. Some of the other combos w/higher spike potential can have a full 60 second cooldown before you can try again.

Still, I've just been messing around w/TB3. The TB global cooldown starts when TB is activated. This means if TB3 is on a target the entire time it's only 3 sec before I can pop the second TB. However, I should have suggested 2x TB1 w/higher heals or adding another CC (eg GW or EWP)/interupt (PSW) in the LtC spot though.

So why aren't you flying a raptor? You can do all this in a raptor. And using the 2 piece borg and 2 piece KHG have the highest effective weapons boost in the game aside from the tactical Bortas. Yes you can do what you say and as you pointed it yourself it has a lot to do with being up against pugs. By the way that same set up in a bop gives the same effective weapon boost as a fed escort, or any Klingon not using KHG 2 piece. So this is what escorts do and it is what they were designed for. The only reason you might do this in a BOP is if you were curious as to how you could make things harder on yourself. Because decent players will punish you for doing this. Like you said though it can work in a PUG. That doesn't make it good.

Sixty second cool down times on your tac abilities don't really matter at this point. Because even if they were active you're now up against fully aware targets running defenses. Unless your targets suck. In that case none of this matters as anything will work.

So five boff powers you can chain. Okay a tactical build has 4 plus 2 superior damage resist buffs. Delta and Omega.

You kind of already mentioned that you may be placing TB on a target that is not affected by it. So that's a waste. Just a flat out waste. You can shoot that target all you like and really its not dying. Until the defenses go down or you get an assist from a teammate. But that's what escort type ships do. Not BOPsand certianly not tactical BOPs.

Any time that a TB would work, a tactical doesn't need it. And any time that it wouldn't work a tactical would be better served by some useful ability. Like a damage buff. Cause this is the Tactical way.

Look at the Sci builds. In this thread and others. Not sure how they got in the Tactical Thread but here they are! You'll see that most of the successful builds use a quick succession of abilities to disable an opponent to make them vulnerable. Tactical BOP does not. Tactical BOP drops the largest amount of damage on a target in the shortest time possible. And then they go away.

If you're using a science ability as a primary part of your build, its not tactical. It science.


Cheers and Happy Flying!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
05-25-2012, 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thissler
So why aren't you flying a raptor? You can do all this in a raptor. And using the 2 piece borg and 2 piece KHG have the highest effective weapons boost in the game aside from the tactical Bortas. Yes you can do what you say and as you pointed it yourself it has a lot to do with being up against pugs. By the way that same set up in a bop gives the same effective weapon boost as a fed escort, or any Klingon not using KHG 2 piece. So this is what escorts do and it is what they were designed for. The only reason you might do this in a BOP is if you were curious as to how you could make things harder on yourself. Because decent players will punish you for doing this. Like you said though it can work in a PUG. That doesn't make it good.

Sixty second cool down times on your tac abilities don't really matter at this point. Because even if they were active you're now up against fully aware targets running defenses. Unless your targets suck. In that case none of this matters as anything will work.

So five boff powers you can chain. Okay a tactical build has 4 plus 2 superior damage resist buffs. Delta and Omega.

You kind of already mentioned that you may be placing TB on a target that is not affected by it. So that's a waste. Just a flat out waste. You can shoot that target all you like and really its not dying. Until the defenses go down or you get an assist from a teammate. But that's what escort type ships do. Not BOPsand certianly not tactical BOPs.

Any time that a TB would work, a tactical doesn't need it. And any time that it wouldn't work a tactical would be better served by some useful ability. Like a damage buff. Cause this is the Tactical way.

Look at the Sci builds. In this thread and others. Not sure how they got in the Tactical Thread but here they are! You'll see that most of the successful builds use a quick succession of abilities to disable an opponent to make them vulnerable. Tactical BOP does not. Tactical BOP drops the largest amount of damage on a target in the shortest time possible. And then they go away.

If you're using a science ability as a primary part of your build, its not tactical. It science.


Cheers and Happy Flying!
KHG only boosts torps, I don't mention using torps. I prefer the omega deflector if a player wants to be cheesy they could also use omega shields for tet glider. If I want to be defensive I could use omega deflector, aegis engines, KHG shields or aegis engines, aegis shields, omega deflector.

The raptor doesn't have BC abilities, this negates the quick evasives cloak, re-enter fight I had described.

While what I mentioned wouldn't have both APD or APO it could and should have 1 of them. Further, the raptor doesn't have the ability to use 3 slots for eng/sci. It only has 2 and they're capped at Lt. I do suggest people try out a debuff sci/eng ability and basically have the same survivabilty in terms of Boffs as a tradeoff to applying more dps. If a raptor tried this (which they can't for things like psw, gw, ewp) they'd lose 50% (in the case of chained tbs) of their survivability Boffs. Further, if a pilot used TB 1s as I mentioned in my last post they'd have a Lt Com rank repair/resist ability.

I also think you're haven't considered the positioning advantage a TB can give in an open fight. This helps not only applying dps, but avoiding incoming dps. This can even allow for a quick BC cloak-uncloak to boost alpha strikes. I'd agree if I only had 1 TB it'd be a waste when used on someone who quickly pops PH/APO if there's not a debuffer around. But w/2 I can change targets (just as if they popped rsp) and reapply when their immunity weres off.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
05-25-2012, 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thissler
BoP stuff from page one.
I made a few free BoP's as my Captain gained levels from 22 to 37 these past few days using Thissler's advice and my standard Tac Captain skill tree.

Hit and Run tactics are pure $$. I have tray one filled as APA3, Mark, THY2, QTorp, BAO3, Dual Disr Bank, Wpn Battery, CRF1, Evasive, Battle Cloak. After buffing/decloaking at 10.5 km out, I roll through that tray and things just pop - As advertised.

I don't know WTF people waste time playing Feds past the level you unlock Klingons. Man this sure is fun. Granted, I've just done PVE in this build, but Jiminey Crickets I love seeing explosions like that.

Next ship has an additional cannon upo front. Wooo....

Will do some PvP in a few days after L50 and a few STFs for Borgness to test this build out.
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