Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Cruisers suck
05-03-2012, 07:43 PM
and that makes me sad... don't get me wrong, cruisers can be quite nice PVE, particularly where there is no time limit. They can take a tremendous amount of punishment and take their time killing off whatever mess they flew straight into, but in stfs where getting it done fast is key, cruisers just really don't have it. And when it comes to PVP, the most cruisers can hope to do is survive, they can't really bite back. In 1v1 pvp, a properly built escort will tear a cruiser up and quite effortlessly tank the damage a cruiser, heck, several cruisers can do. I've flown my bop into a ball of fed cruisers and been accused of hacking because i built my bop to be able to tank damn near as well as a cruiser while doing far superior damage. And the only time an escort ends up "piddling about with just its turrets" (as some cruiser lovers say) is only against another escort where they dog fight, each trying to keep out of the others cannon arcs while simultaneously trying to keep the enemy in theirs. Otherwise most escorts do what I call the "park and pwn" where they stop or significantly slow down (most easily done against slower ships like cruisers) and just blow the crap out of a shield facing and then the exposed hull underneath. I have even park and pwnt the tac cubes in stfs while tanking them... IN A BOP.

The game's balance is quite off, and it saddens me, because cruisers shouldn't just be damage sinks and traditional mmo tanks that have "taunt" skills (starship threat control) with low damage and lots of health. Do you think the enterprise E would be flying around, barely doing any damage to a cube trying to "distract it" while extending its shields to the defiant to let it kill the cube for it? No.

In trek lore, the defiant, and escorts in general, were starfleet's way of fielding more firepower without the tremendous expense and resources that would go into full blown cruisers. They are basically the equivalent of taking the weapons of a crusier, and the engines of a cruiser, strapping them together, and sending them into battle without the rest of the ship.

Both ships should be able to do excellent damage, comparable damage, and I mean comparable within the same time frame. None of this "escort shreds enemy in two volleys, cruiser takes 2 minutes." crap. The only difference there should be between the two is that the cruiser is slow and, while easy to hit, can take alot of punishment, while the escort is supposed to be much faster, maneuverable, and evasive, so that it can avoid damage and take advantage of enemy weakness by having better ability to get into position to do so. An escort 's primary defense should be evasion, keeping moving. It should never, EVER, be able to park and pwn or slow to a crawl without getting easily blown out of the sky.

So, while I really, really wish I could love my cruisers, particularly the odys (holy crap that's a pretty ship) I bought, I don't. I'm not satisfied with pve traditional mmo tanking in a star trek game (the pve content is so limited and pretty lame anyway) nor can I trick myself into thinking: "I'm content with my role, playing a healer/damage sink." like most people who say they like cruisers have. Really? REALLY?! There is no "healer class ship" in star trek, in first contact, did the crews of those poor, tattered ships think: "Thank god the enterprise has arrived to extend its shields!" or "Yay! The enterprise will distract and meatshield us from the cube while we do all the damage!" no! they thought: "Thank god the enterprise is here to pwn this cube's face!" Nor am I happy to simply absorb the damage of 1-5 attacking ships in pvp, only to not have enough damage to destroy a single one of them... unless they happen to be super, I mean SUPER noob.

I don't want to take any of the awesome away from escorts, I just think their awesome should be tweaked to match star trek canon and cruisers fixed to not be so sucktastic. And this mmo shouldn't be trying so hard to copy the typical mmo formula. Each ship should be able to take care of itself, there should be no need to form a group of healer+tank+dd's. Every ship should be able to tank, escorts should evasion tank, cruisers should meat shield/defense tank, and sci ships should be somewhere in the middle. Every ship should do the same amount of damage, escorts in reasonable bursts with cannon attack runs (a la defiant) or more traditionally (a la prometheus), cruisers should not suck with few tac consoles and few, low level tac skills, nor should sci ships for that matter. Only being able to fire 3 torps in a volley? seriously? Voyager could do and did better than that. Though admittedly, sci normal-damage output should be balanced with their sci damage/crowd control skills.

There are many, MANY ways to fix the problems with this game, but that'd be a whole other novel which I shall, perhaps, write later.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
05-03-2012, 08:16 PM
Surely you jest. Cruisers are fun. They are just as valuable in PVP as they are in PVE.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
05-03-2012, 08:18 PM
I love their turn rate and beams.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
05-03-2012, 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkstocbr
I love their turn rate and beams.
Are you serious or sarcastic?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
05-03-2012, 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliftona91
Are you serious or sarcastic?
"Perhaps a little bit of both".

I am quite happy playing cruisers, but I don't PVP :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
05-03-2012, 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliftona91
Are you serious or sarcastic?
I taught some people to use the Injector Assembly and tactical precognition tricks to make cruisers dance like a butterfly, sting like a bee. A certain gentleman with a handle starting with the blue letter J participated in the thread too :3

It's not a joke that certain cruiser builds can fly around as fast as escorts tanking everything with impunity and it takes a certain piloting flair to do the 'fast battlecruiser' act well.

Assault cruiser is decent provided the pilot can maintain max range and high speed discipline, Odyssey Operations with the saucer separated spamming Aux2Dampers and APO is like a supercharged Mercedes CLS AMG swooping through STF maps with Jeremy Clarkson at the wheel.

Hmmm, methinks I should de-mothball my Texas Chainsaw Massacre cruiser build for some fast and furious Tokyo Drifting ESTF action on youtube this weekend. What say you :3

Oh, and here's a wee lil article on why cruisers are awesome.

I use cruisers extensively for fleet PvP. Nothing wrong with them
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
05-03-2012, 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmenara
I taught some people to use the Injector Assembly and tactical precognition tricks to make cruisers dance like a butterfly, sting like a bee. A certain gentleman with a handle starting with the blue letter J participated in the thread too :3

It's not a joke that certain cruiser builds can fly around as fast as escorts tanking everything with impunity and it takes a certain piloting flair to do the 'fast battlecruiser' act well.

Assault cruiser is decent provided the pilot can maintain max range and high speed discipline, Odyssey Operations with the saucer separated spamming Aux2Dampers and APO is like a supercharged Mercedes CLS AMG swooping through STF maps with Jeremy Clarkson at the wheel.
Hmmmmm, might be interesting to try out. If I haven't already mentioned, sorry about the whole "Mad Scientist" thing I said in my Cruisers are fun thread. I wasn't meaning it as an insult. In fact I was thinking of strapping a Beam Array on an aft weapon slot on my Qin Raptor and put my Nausicaan Tac Officer to use with BO1 derived from what others said on the forums and what you've done with your Fleet Escort.

About you demothballing one of your old cruisers: I say aye fellow warrior. May you never know defeat!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
05-03-2012, 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliftona91
Hmmmmm, might be interesting to try out. If I haven't already mentioned, sorry about the whole "Mad Scientist" thing I said in my Cruisers are fun thread. I wasn't meaning it as an insult. In fact I was thinking of strapping a Beam Array on an aft weapon slot on my Qin Raptor and put my Nausicaan Tac Officer to use with BO1
We can discuss tactics in more detail and evaluate my ship builds when I get home later. Think we need some quality time to look at specific (lesser used) ship components and why some builds of mine look totally insane.

The fleet escort with cannons, beams and torpedoes all firing at once is quite the star in ESTFs because of something called synergy between all its skills. It's not as hard hitting as your AE with all the DHCs but is a blade dancer capable of adapting to a variety of situations and destroying targets at any angle and range. I use it as a proper escort destroyer which means it's like a flying artillery platform intended to fly behind a battle line and just slaughter things and heal other AEs for 20 minutes straight. As you recall the ship did poorly with DHCs but once the mad scientist treatment came on it was splendid.

The other 'mad scientist cruiser' build you probably have not seen. I only demonstrated the Lexington's 'fast battlecruiser' capabilities to the TFR fleet and to @InputEnd in last week's ESTF training run.

One other thing too is that my assault cruiser actually outperforms the fleet escort in a long running battle due to the enormous amount of engineering slots. Sure, might not turn as well as the escort but straight line speed? The cruiser is faster thanks to Injector Assy. in the extra engineering slot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
05-03-2012, 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmenara
I taught some people to use the Injector Assembly and tactical precognition tricks to make cruisers dance like a butterfly, sting like a bee. A certain gentleman with a handle starting with the blue letter J participated in the thread too :3


I think you can play STO in any ship that you want to fly if you know how. I have always flows cruisers and don't have any issue with them. I can't get the hang of escorts and have tried many times. It's all about what you want to play and how you Skill up.

I am currently fully skilled in Doff and Dabbo until the FE replay starts :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
05-03-2012, 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmenara
...blade dancer...
You haven't played any Lineage II have you?

run away! run away! Aaaaaaaaa!
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