Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
05-03-2012, 09:59 PM
was pretty sure I'd get all the "I <3 my cruiser" people over here, but seriously, anyone who fawns over the damage their cruiser does is a total noob who has never encountered a decent pvper or a proper escort. I have made my claims of cruiser craptitude in chat and had the cruiser lovers come back with all this retarded nonsense that could only possibly work in kiddy glove pve where time is absolutely not of the essence, or descriptions of everything I've already tried. When one guy told me about how his cruiser does, and I quote, "epic damage," I asked him to teach me. He pulls me into a private challenge, and guess what? I wasn't the noob he thought I was. "What? you actually know what you're doing?" Yes, yes I do, and despite that, cruisers still suck. Go to kerrat and watch lady fek'lrhi buzz around in a gurumba, an escort type vessel, killing 6 or more people before she gets taken down, and that's IF she gets taken down. I admit, it's cool to take my ody into kerrat and take on 2-3 cubes plus a few probes all at once and survive. That's awesome. But that is in a situation where I have the time to sit and do that, not in stf where you gotta blow through things like tissue paper to make optional or pvp where they don't just sit there and let you beat on them, they move around and heal themselves. Plus it's annoying that two cruisers (if they are worth their salt) can never kill one another one on one. Did any cruiser in the series go up against another cruiser, they fire back and forth doing no damage to each other for a while and then give up out of frustration? no. To properly simulate the dynamics of the show, there needs to be a scaling defense system. The more people targeting you, the higher your defense, of course with diminishing returns. But if you are facing one person, their defense should be normal, and your defense should be normal and each of you should be able to take the other down. If three people are on you, you should have a fighting chance, not just get blown through. And that would simulate how in the shows, a ship could be struggling in a fight against one vessel, but then when facing 2+, the ship suddenly, magically is much more kickass and harder to kill.

@sophlogimo: He can only do as you suggest every 90+ seconds and go down fighting only works under 50% health. So yes, let us pause to marvel at how a tac captain can do a decent burst of damage in a cruiser and, after what is an eternity in pvp time, do another decent burst of damage... if under 50% health. Sorry, color me unimpressed.

@Sakarak: By "much more powerful, upgraded excelsior class ship," I presume you mean "much more powerful than the 80 year old excelsior class ship." and not "much more powerful than the defiant." But either way, when I look at that fight, I don't see, "Wow, look at the defiant go!" I think, "The defiant had its hands full with an upgraded 80 year old ship, how can it possibly blow through a sovereign?" And in regard to the prometheus and the nebula, that was the byproduct of needing to say "this new ship we're introducing is awesome, but we can't spend half the episode showing it." Just like many of the dominion war scenes show vessels popping from a single volley for the sake of conserving time and cramming as much "epic" as possible into the time allotted. But as I said, an escort is the weapons and engines of a cruiser strapped together and sent into battle without the rest of the ship. An escort should have the firepower of a cruiser (and a cruiser the fire power of an escort), the difference is one is slow and has high defense, the other is fast and evasive. And each should be pretty much equal but with different styles of play and advantages. Currently an escort can blow the crap out of pretty much anything with ridiculous ease, and can tank just as well if not better than a cruiser. While the cruiser is survivable but pecks at things. The balance is way off. I'm not saying I hate cruisers as they should be, I hate them as they are... and I really, really wish I could love them, cause the ody is freaking beautiful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
05-03-2012, 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakeofmylove View Post
was pretty sure I'd get all the "I <3 my cruiser" people over here, but seriously, anyone who fawns over the damage their cruiser does is a total noob who has never encountered a decent pvper or a proper escort. I have made my claims of cruiser craptitude in chat and had the cruiser lovers come back with all this retarded nonsense that could only possibly work in kiddy glove pve where time is absolutely not of the essence, or descriptions of everything I've already tried. When one guy told me about how his cruiser does, and I quote, "epic damage," I asked him to teach me. He pulls me into a private challenge, and guess what? I wasn't the noob he thought I was. "What? you actually know what you're doing?" Yes, yes I do, and despite that, cruisers still suck. Go to kerrat and watch lady fek'lrhi buzz around in a gurumba, an escort type vessel, killing 6 or more people before she gets taken down, and that's IF she gets taken down. I admit, it's cool to take my ody into kerrat and take on 2-3 cubes plus a few probes all at once and survive. That's awesome. But that is in a situation where I have the time to sit and do that, not in stf where you gotta blow through things like tissue paper to make optional or pvp where they don't just sit there and let you beat on them, they move around and heal themselves. Plus it's annoying that two cruisers (if they are worth their salt) can never kill one another one on one. Did any cruiser in the series go up against another cruiser, they fire back and forth doing no damage to each other for a while and then give up out of frustration? no. To properly simulate the dynamics of the show, there needs to be a scaling defense system. The more people targeting you, the higher your defense, of course with diminishing returns. But if you are facing one person, their defense should be normal, and your defense should be normal and each of you should be able to take the other down. If three people are on you, you should have a fighting chance, not just get blown through. And that would simulate how in the shows, a ship could be struggling in a fight against one vessel, but then when facing 2+, the ship suddenly, magically is much more kickass and harder to kill.

@sophlogimo: He can only do as you suggest every 90+ seconds and go down fighting only works under 50% health. So yes, let us pause to marvel at how a tac captain can do a decent burst of damage in a cruiser and, after what is an eternity in pvp time, do another decent burst of damage... if under 50% health. Sorry, color me unimpressed.

@Sakarak: By "much more powerful, upgraded excelsior class ship," I presume you mean "much more powerful than the 80 year old excelsior class ship." and not "much more powerful than the defiant." But either way, when I look at that fight, I don't see, "Wow, look at the defiant go!" I think, "The defiant had its hands full with an upgraded 80 year old ship, how can it possibly blow through a sovereign?" And in regard to the prometheus and the nebula, that was the byproduct of needing to say "this new ship we're introducing is awesome, but we can't spend half the episode showing it." Just like many of the dominion war scenes show vessels popping from a single volley for the sake of conserving time and cramming as much "epic" as possible into the time allotted. But as I said, an escort is the weapons and engines of a cruiser strapped together and sent into battle without the rest of the ship. An escort should have the firepower of a cruiser (and a cruiser the fire power of an escort), the difference is one is slow and has high defense, the other is fast and evasive. And each should be pretty much equal but with different styles of play and advantages. Currently an escort can blow the crap out of pretty much anything with ridiculous ease, and can tank just as well if not better than a cruiser. While the cruiser is survivable but pecks at things. The balance is way off. I'm not saying I hate cruisers as they should be, I hate them as they are... and I really, really wish I could love them, cause the ody is freaking beautiful.
I have encounter decent PvPers. I have encountered awesome Escorts. I practically read the damn Organized PVP channel on a daily basis. I have been owned by Lady Fek'thiri via her violet disco ball of doom.

The problem isn't that Escorts are overpowered or anything like that. It's you. You aren't giving the big boats a chance or experimenting with them at all. The only reason Escorts "seem" like they tank better than a cruiser is because they are going at a high speed. Disable the engines and their defense drops considerably. Then they pop like every other ship.

I also make optionals in Elite with my Bortas'Qu, it just depends on the team. Granted, 5 cruisers won't be able to make the optionals, but even if it is just 2 good Escorts and a couple cruisers, the Optionals are possible to achieve. Besides, why should you even care about optionals anyway? More often than not, you usually don't get anything out of the extra bag.

And on another note, slim down the wall of text.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
05-03-2012, 10:28 PM
To the OP. Come over to the KDF side where our cruisers will satisfy the hunger of any James Kirk wanna be. U want burst damage. We have some leftover 2011 Vorchas for you loaded with the optional DHC, and Bose sound system. U can have any color you want as long as its green
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
05-03-2012, 10:35 PM
I shall not thin my walls of text, I shall present them in full force and all their glory. =P

And excuse you, you don't know anything of what I've done with "the big boats." And it's frankly, too much to convey. But I started in a cruiser and flew cruisers all the way up to VA where I found myself severely disappointed at how the best I could do was damage sink and run from an enemy escort without really doing much to make it think twice about attacking me again. I then got a promy and was much happier. Also, my bop can get caught in three tractor beams having three cruisers pounding on it as hard as they can, caught in two grav wells, which I would survive, possibly having actually taken some damage, which i would then completely heal up in a few seconds, making that whole attempt entirely useless. So stopping an escort from moving doesn't necessarily mean its defense goes out the window. Plus the only thing disabling the engines of a death machine like lady fek'lrhi does is stop her from her perpetual upward or downward spiral that prevents cannon users from keeping her in their sights (a tactic that would no longer work so well if they would give us proper 360 degree motion, or even simply allow ships to point their nose all the way up and down.), thus affording them, THEM, the escorts, the opportunity to kill her. Stopping lady fek'lrhi for some cruisers really wouldn't do anything to her.

And yeah, just two good escorts is all it takes to make up for the tremendous lack of damage on the part of the three other cruisers. That's just a point toward my argument. Yes, the items in the extra bag might not be that great and you might not even get any of them, but that doesn't really soften the blow of the all cruiser team's inability to get the bag and have that opportunity to get nothing. And you're talking about your bortas? The cruiser with 4+ tac consoles so it can actually do damage like an escort? Duh. I like the bortas quite well, it's the closest approximation of what a cruiser should be capable of.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
05-03-2012, 10:43 PM
I think of escorts as sprinters, and cruisers as marathon runners. You need both for that team gold medal.Sci vessels..meh..they pass out the water.(My brother runs sci...thats him knocking on my front door now.Bet he's gonna throw a punch.)Nah. seriously my brother rolled out an engineer because he felt his sci V/A got nerfed to extinction on the battlefield.I feel for the sci folks, and I was gonna roll one out to play with the nebula class.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
05-03-2012, 10:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptjhunter
I think of escorts as sprinters, and cruisers as marathon runners. You need both for that team gold medal.Sci vessels..meh..they pass out the water.(My brother runs sci...thats him knocking on my front door now.Bet he's gonna throw a punch.)Nah. seriously my brother rolled out an engineer because he felt his sci V/A got nerfed to extinction on the battlefield.I feel for the sci folks, and I was gonna roll one out to play with the nebula class.
Yup, escorts are sprinters, sprinters who can sprint the whole marathon two or three times in the time it takes the poor "marathon runner" to do it once. The poor marathon runner who is lagging behind, trying its best to feel useful, even though it knows the escort is the star of this show.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
05-04-2012, 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakeofmylove View Post
Yup, escorts are sprinters, sprinters who can sprint the whole marathon two or three times in the time it takes the poor "marathon runner" to do it once. The poor marathon runner who is lagging behind, trying its best to feel useful, even though it knows the escort is the star of this show.
Nope ,I use both,So I will rephrase it.The escort is the guy who gets KOed in allout barfight unless he runs out the backdoor.The cruiser is the guy still standing after slugging it out for the duration.A lack of patience,and running a cruiser like a escort is folly.I love my escorts, but I enjoy the cruisers as well.Its just a different style of tactical usage.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
05-04-2012, 12:41 AM
Someone is frustrated:p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
05-04-2012, 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vesolc
Someone is frustrated:p
Ah, your right.This is a personal egostroke thread, and trollbait. I should look for a thread that has something more constructive to ponder, and input.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
05-04-2012, 03:11 AM
Cruisers could use a few more ensign stations to better reflect their universal design.
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