Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
05-15-2012, 02:41 AM
I agree with Naz...

Crons have a 33% proc chance... which was DESIGNED for when the only thing firing them was players and they have the LONGEST cool down of any torp in the game.

Now thanks to Torp Doffs....
and pets spamming them.... they are BEYOND stupid.

Players spamming them is one thing... players give up a lot of DMG to run them... and even with 3 good doffs they still have the longest cool down... meaning just using 1 with doffs is far from spam... and if a player commits 2-3 weapon slots to them... I think its fair game again its expensive trading off all most an entire ships dmg for one proc.

The pets should be running Transphasics honestly... its the highest Pet Torp Type... as Per Cryptics Info... which follows as they are to dumb to hold fire for shields down.

Giving them Spam slow procs is bad form... EVERY pet (klink included) that has Crons should have there type changed to Phasics.... or even plasmas.... Come on you know those shuttles trying to land HY plasmas would be good for yuks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
05-15-2012, 06:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
Players spamming them is one thing... players give up a lot of DMG to run them...
As someone actively flying an atrox, I'll tell you straight up I give up alot of damage to run runabouts.

A full four runabouts (one hangar) is LESS damage than a single deploy (just 3) of peregrines, AND its signicantly less phaser spam.

The damage numbers rise rather solidly when I swap from 1x Runabout 1x Peregrine to 2x Peregrines.
A full 12 peregrines is a full 12 quantum torpedos + two sets of cannons per fighter.
What do runabouts have? a single beam array (which is garabage aside from its chance to proc), a tractor beam that does almost no damage, and chron torps which again do relatively minor damage. Oh yeah they also have a longer cool down, are limited to 2per deploy/4 total, and are not signifanctly harder to kill than peregrines to make up for that.

I am not denying that runabouts are not amazing at trying to keep things from running away, but thats practically all they really do. There damage is pretty much nil, most peoples epts rotations will tank 8 runabouts and then some.

The only people I've seen get really boned by runabouts were idiotic escorts that run absolutely ZERO APO/PH/Whatever. They have lived on RPS+Evasive and refuse to change up to deal with it.
Well thats not entirely true, I also trolled a dreadnaught pretty hard but we honestly couldn't kill eachother. He couldn't run away, I couldn't kill him. We fought for a good long while until afew teammates showed up to deal with him.

When I look at things like the Karfi, I see a ship that CAN and WILL kill you. They will drain you, leave you helpless and then stick some cannons up your yazoo.
Further they have pets that actually resist anti-pet skills. They can spam aceton assimilators. They actually have the firepower to hurt you.

Right now the Atrox is mostly a CC+Heals+Tank. Even cranking maxed weapon power with 6 beam broadsides the damage is pitiful. The only kills I manage to make are assists, morons/nubs, or are due to lucky phaser procs. The ship just has no teeth.
Who cares if you are stuck there, its not like you die. I mean if your biggest complaint is "I can't move for minutes" how do you think that carrier pilot feels keeping you locked down for minutes without able to even break the shield tank of an escort?
If you do die, its almost always because a friendly teammate swoops in to kill you, not because of the carrier. At which point if that carrier was an escort and simply working with the other escort, you'd get double alpha'd and die in seconds anyhow.....


I mean wheres the OP here?
Are they winning games? NOPE!
Are they demolishing you/killing you? NOPE!
Are they preventing you from tanking, shooting, etc? NOPE! (well technically phaser procs but oddys + faw do it better imo)
At worst what does it do? Full movement lockdown.

Compare that to siphons in there prime, heck, compare that to a drain carrier now. WHERE IS THE OP?
Annoying as all hell? Certainly, though beyond being annoying where is it OP?

"I can't counter all the movement debuffs a dedicated CC ship can toss at me"
"I can't heal all the damage high end alpha strikes can deal out"

Why should one of those be acceptable but the other is not?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
05-15-2012, 06:56 AM
It's a perfect example of what faithborn mentions elsewhere - the fun to unfun quotient is the proble, not the power. Carriers may be overpowered or underpowered. The problem is, the moment they are in the game, they bring a lot of unfun to the other players in form of pet spam. Runabouts may deal the least damage of the available pets, but damnit, constantly getting tractored and counters being too little to deal with the amount of tractoring is unfun.

nd is it really compensated by a lot of fun for your side? Doesn't seem so. Obviously, that doesn't mean the Runabouts need more of a buff. They need to be reconcepted. Maybe their Tractor Beams shouldn't hold people, but provide a damage debuff - a tiny shuttle cannot really hold a large spaceship ,but maybe it can hinder its weapons? Suddenly you have the fun of blunting an enemies alpha strike but the enemy may be able to counter it in turn with defensive measures. Or his alpha strike from now on involves coordinating with a spam-clearance focused guy. Provided that spam clearance and counters even work...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
05-15-2012, 09:52 AM
you know, it would be one thing if the tractor simply lowers your defense rating and doesn't exactly hold you...


and complaining that runabouts deal crap damage is missing the point. you are not captain kirk of the starship cat box, you are the most dangerous befudeler of enemies in the game. your fun destroying pets are supposed to make players helpless so dps ships can kill them.

with the volume of tractors even if you have polarize you only have 33% up time, wile giving up a critical shield or hull heal for it. only escorts can have omega, more or less, and it doesn't work as well and only has a 25% up time.

an escort is the only one that can have potential 100% up time defending against the tractors, with 2 copies of each skill, ships with a ltc tac console can have 91% with 2 polarize and 1 omega, and every other ship could only have 66% up time.

with the pets you have full up time tractoring, wile giveing nothing up, and full up time chrono proc, nothing can counter the proc. this isn't a mater of being to stubborn to put the counters in your build, its a mater of being shut down and helpless for an amount of time that is unacceptable even when countered to the best of your ability. it would be one thing if you could as easily counters the nearly unlimited uptime of the pets, but you cant without making your build nearly unusable, just for a npc pet. its not pvp anymore when the pets are the most dangeriouse thing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
05-15-2012, 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelev
I am not denying that runabouts are not amazing at trying to keep things from running away, but thats practically all they really do. There damage is pretty much nil, most peoples epts rotations will tank 8 runabouts and then some.

The only people I've seen get really boned by runabouts were idiotic escorts that run absolutely ZERO APO/PH/Whatever. They have lived on RPS+Evasive and refuse to change up to deal with it.
Attack Pattern Omega and Polarize Hull do not reliably counter those things. Time after time I've engaged Omega in a carrier fight and been unable to turn. It just doesn't work right against 8xtractor beam. It's not changing our build to adapt to the times, it's changing our build and oh-gawd-I-still-can't-move.

And to reiterate what the above posters said, it's not the OP-ness of the pet, it's the fact that if I fly a bop against a runabout launcher, I'm pretty much guaranteed the turn rate of a carrier the whole match. (Which, I mean, really, in addition to being tons of fun (Tm), is also lethal to BoPs and escorts.)

Seriously, it's the kind of unfun thing I reliably combat by joining an STF queue or reading a book instead. ^_^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
05-15-2012, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainfacer View Post
Attack Pattern Omega and Polarize Hull do not reliably counter those things. Time after time I've engaged Omega in a carrier fight and been unable to turn. It just doesn't work right against 8xtractor beam. It's not changing our build to adapt to the times, it's changing our build and oh-gawd-I-still-can't-move.
Running a single hanger of runabouts (aka 4 max) over the weekend I saw plenty of bops, escorts, raptors, and even afew other types of ships able to escape.

The biggest difference between the people who escaped and who didn't was play style.
The people who escaped where proactive. They PH'd early, they used AOE abilities like scatter volley or in the case of a really nastly little science ship FAW.

Yes, if someone is dumb, if they just sit there and go "shower me in chron procs, phasers, and tractors I love it!" then 30seconds later goes "wait why can't I move! I just used APO!".... WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!?

PH will only break a "limited" number of "current" tractor beams, BUT it gives immunity to future tractors applied.
Meaning if you PH early you can generally take the tractors in stride.
Chron procs take abit of time to build up, unless you are in some stupid situation like 3 atrox's all with double runabout setups or something. Or you just sit there taking it.

The counters are there its just to many people are being reactive instead of proactive.
This is from the perspective of someone seeing his runabouts get blown up or watching a BoP with 3+ tractor beams on it just up and flying away like its nothing.

Again you think its not fun for your poor little escort not to move? I don't particular find firing off fancy science skills that do nothing because they are instantly countered or are just ineffectual to begin with "fun".

If I can't kill things, and "CC is not fun", what exactly does a science/support vessel do? Just a healbot for the "cool kids" who "have fun"?

Why should everything a support/debuffer do have instant and easy counters? How about counters that are progressive much like heals that are progressive?
Wheres my crippling alpha strike of disables/debuffs... oops they all share cooldowns lol.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
05-15-2012, 12:08 PM
In my tests on tribble with Mavairo, while testing the new Tractor Beam "Bandaid" we saw how rediculiously effective Mass Chronoton Torps can be. And how not even APO, Evasive, or Aux to Damp could break free from them. Now, your saying that it's not that bad. That 8 Danube Runabouts, while having less damage but more surviability then the Peregrine fighters, are worse? When they can currently Lock some one down in 8 Tractor Beams, Spit out 8 Chronoton Torps repeatedly and not necessarely on the same cool down either.. is not bad? That it will only effect people who are stupid enough to get caught in it?

What could be considered stupid, is that a carrier pilot, like my self, won't just deploy 2 sets of pets and leave them alone.. I'll wait till targets get close and then RE-DEPLOY a new set. What that means is that they will despawn the newest set, and spawn a new set of 4 that will automaticlaly, if in range, throw 4 more tractor beams on you, and fire more Chronoton Torps. And that is with out the Hanger Bay Recharge boosters from Flight Deck DOFFs since Fed side version don't affect Carrier pets.. Yet.

Picture if you will, before the tested version of the Bandaid to Tractor Beam pets, you getting Tractored, you pop your PH, as SOON As it runs out 4 Danubes Grab you with TRactor beams while all 8 Danubes are pelting you with Chronoton Torps and their Phaser Beam Arrays.. You also have Omega up? Cool.. When your OMega runs out, 4 more Pets suddenly Grab you again. And in the mean time it takes minimum of 3 Chronoton Procs to keep you from moving.. even with APO.. With 8 Danubes fireing Chronoton Torps, that's almost guarenteed to stop you from moving.

Now, you know what happens when your movement gets slowed in an escort even a little right? All that defense you have.. Poof.. gone. And those Torps that you might think are weaker then dirt.. suddenly start to hit and Crit.. Maybe not as hard as a Quantum of course.. But that starts to add up. Now.. Add in a carrier that is also using Dirty tricks like Photonic Shockwave, Gravity Well, Viral Matrix, and maybe even a Torpedo or Two of his or her own maybe even with Beta or High Yield running. Now let' ssay that same captian is eitiher a Sci or a Tac. Would you REALLY want 8 Danubes that can live LONGER then Peregine Fighters in a mass of AOE damage goodness throwing their CHronoton Torps and their Tractor Beams at you while a Carrier is disabling you and allowing them to do the damage that is supposed to be so bad?

I know I wouldn't.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 88
05-15-2012, 01:41 PM
the debuffs and holds and all that are balanced to were you wouldn't run into 2 or 3 at a time AT MOST. with pets all bets are off, you deal with 2 or 3 times that at the same time per carrier, and with fresh launches you ensure that you have to deal with 2 or 3 times that AT ALL TIMES. it doesn't mater what your opponent does or doesn't do, the abilities arent balance at that volume of them.

this nonsense solution of just escape them is as worthless as choosing to wait it out. ether way you are rendered infective, ether way you cant perform your function as a team mate, ether way with every second you arent pileing damage or healing your team might as well be a man down. the time lost escaping or befuddled is the real damage to the team effort, its not a mater of dealing or not dealing with the ability spam.

oh and the runabout's chrono spam is NOTHING compared to the advanced orian interceptor. that's right, they have chronos too, move 5 times faster then any pet, respawn as fast as damage dealing fighters and the kdf had hanger doffs. they are the successor to the siphon drone
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 89
05-15-2012, 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelev
As someone actively flying an atrox, I'll tell you straight up I give up alot of damage to run runabouts.

A full four runabouts (one hangar) is LESS damage than a single deploy (just 3) of peregrines, AND its signicantly less phaser spam.

The damage numbers rise rather solidly when I swap from 1x Runabout 1x Peregrine to 2x Peregrines.
A full 12 peregrines is a full 12 quantum torpedos + two sets of cannons per fighter.
What do runabouts have? a single beam array (which is garabage aside from its chance to proc), a tractor beam that does almost no damage, and chron torps which again do relatively minor damage. Oh yeah they also have a longer cool down, are limited to 2per deploy/4 total, and are not signifanctly harder to kill than peregrines to make up for that.

I am not denying that runabouts are not amazing at trying to keep things from running away, but thats practically all they really do. There damage is pretty much nil, most peoples epts rotations will tank 8 runabouts and then some.

The only people I've seen get really boned by runabouts were idiotic escorts that run absolutely ZERO APO/PH/Whatever. They have lived on RPS+Evasive and refuse to change up to deal with it.
Well thats not entirely true, I also trolled a dreadnaught pretty hard but we honestly couldn't kill eachother. He couldn't run away, I couldn't kill him. We fought for a good long while until afew teammates showed up to deal with him.

When I look at things like the Karfi, I see a ship that CAN and WILL kill you. They will drain you, leave you helpless and then stick some cannons up your yazoo.
Further they have pets that actually resist anti-pet skills. They can spam aceton assimilators. They actually have the firepower to hurt you.

Right now the Atrox is mostly a CC+Heals+Tank. Even cranking maxed weapon power with 6 beam broadsides the damage is pitiful. The only kills I manage to make are assists, morons/nubs, or are due to lucky phaser procs. The ship just has no teeth.
Who cares if you are stuck there, its not like you die. I mean if your biggest complaint is "I can't move for minutes" how do you think that carrier pilot feels keeping you locked down for minutes without able to even break the shield tank of an escort?
If you do die, its almost always because a friendly teammate swoops in to kill you, not because of the carrier. At which point if that carrier was an escort and simply working with the other escort, you'd get double alpha'd and die in seconds anyhow.....


I mean wheres the OP here?
Are they winning games? NOPE!
Are they demolishing you/killing you? NOPE!
Are they preventing you from tanking, shooting, etc? NOPE! (well technically phaser procs but oddys + faw do it better imo)
At worst what does it do? Full movement lockdown.

Compare that to siphons in there prime, heck, compare that to a drain carrier now. WHERE IS THE OP?
Annoying as all hell? Certainly, though beyond being annoying where is it OP?

"I can't counter all the movement debuffs a dedicated CC ship can toss at me"
"I can't heal all the damage high end alpha strikes can deal out"

Why should one of those be acceptable but the other is not?
Any ship trapped w/tbs, phaser procs, and cronts will die to a half decent escort. It doesn't matter if your ship is doing the kill damage or not. Your pets alone can make this possible. Using other unbalanced crap to justify your unbalanced crap isn't a solid argument.

1st you greatly devalue the advantages of a ship locked into place. It's defense will be lowered resulting in more hits in general, and more damage from more crit hits. Further, the ship is stuck facing one direction which allows allies to move out of the stuck ships main dps front, lowering the incoming dps.

2nd phaser procs get 4 rolls compared to every other proc in the game. They're also the most powerful being they can shut down entire subsytems. Coupled w/cronts & tractors there will be more hits resulting in more procs. I've been in situations where I've lost a subsystem or 2, used eng team, lost shields, used epts, lost them again used battery, then lost them again. All in under 5 sec to a team w/all phaser & no pets. The pets just take it to a laughable level.

3rd Cronts have no hard counter in game and stack. They make it so if a person uses evasives/ph or apo early they are less likely to get away anyway. Since the opposing escorts could just pop an eng battery and catch them.

To be fair I think the idea of a team of karfi ships flying around w/various consoles spamming pets w/hy trics cronts and ace beams is also over the top. The difference is I admit it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 90
05-15-2012, 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the debuffs and holds and all that are balanced to were you wouldn't run into 2 or 3 at a time AT MOST. with pets all bets are off, you deal with 2 or 3 times that at the same time per carrier, and with fresh launches you ensure that you have to deal with 2 or 3 times that AT ALL TIMES. it doesn't mater what your opponent does or doesn't do, the abilities arent balance at that volume of them.

this nonsense solution of just escape them is as worthless as choosing to wait it out. ether way you are rendered infective, ether way you cant perform your function as a team mate, ether way with every second you arent pileing damage or healing your team might as well be a man down. the time lost escaping or befuddled is the real damage to the team effort, its not a mater of dealing or not dealing with the ability spam.

oh and the runabout's chrono spam is NOTHING compared to the advanced orian interceptor. that's right, they have chronos too, move 5 times faster then any pet, respawn as fast as damage dealing fighters and the kdf had hanger doffs. they are the successor to the siphon drone
while there can only be 4/ship, I think the advanced frigs w/HY2 trics, cronts, ace beam, crf2 could be worse en masse.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:29 PM.