Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
05-12-2012, 03:26 AM
Thanks for the starting the Weekly Updates. I am looking forward to them.

You do indeed start with a "bombshell", saying PvP could also get "off the table" if it should prove unfeasible to improve it. I would be sad to see that happen. But not _that_ sad, since I am not PvPing much anymore. If it should happen, it will probably be for the better.

But I hope it doesn't come to that, and that we'll find a better solution.

Giving up the FvK, FvF and KvK queues would already be a big change. Reading between the lines I see hope for the FvK war finally coming to a conclusion in the big story of the game. The storyline could finally advance. It also seems to imply that territory control may be finally off the table? (I can't imagine it being fleet-based). I didn't really expect to see it happen soon, andit may be better to give it up early rather than try to limit the game in other areas just for the chance of it.

I know one thing: You will need a lot of systems resources to make PvP work again. it is not just about PvP missions or leaderboards. It is a lot about gameplay balance and, quite simply, enjoyable gameplay. t will be important to find out not just what things are broken but why they are broken, why we find them unbalanced or unfun.

And it will bring us back to the big problem of the PvE/PvP dichotomy. I don't want PvP to take the bullet just because PvE might be harmed by it. I wonder if different mechanics for PvP and PvE would still be possible. It is a lot of work to set this up, but it has the advantage that PvP will no longer infringe on PvE, and the differences between NPCs and players as enemies can be respected.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
05-12-2012, 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by Cryptic_Gozer
I see lots of threads about KDF players having access to gear that FED players do not. This isnít going to be a problem in the new system since their will not be any FED vs KDF PVP. All PVP in the new system will be cross faction queues.

So confused is pi.

There are two factions in the game, Fed and KDF. How can there be cross faction PvP if there are no FvK queues? It makes no sense.

Is this a hint at territory control? Where ever you have Feds' fighting KDF and Feds are getting beat they will always blame the KDF gear. Hell that is how I feel when I PUG as a KDF and run afoul Familia, Pandas and even, (especially even) Infinitum. When I am teamed with the Panda Cubs I come out on top more often so skill is less an issue, (I am after all still mediocre), right? I know the builds I use are acceptable. No does not make sense.

Are the new factions to be between the fleet bases? Isolated war games?

Either way I would like to say thank you for the blunt communication, well before you got all coy in the paragraph I stressed here. Blunt is not bad in the world I come from.

Edited to add: Wish I woulda found this first...

Originally Posted by Cryptic_Gozer
There is already quite a bit of trying of trying to read between the lines here with my original post, and really we should try to stay away from that.

If I say something that isn't very clear just ask. I'm watching the thread if I can give you a better answer I will.

For instance. as to the question about no more KDF vs FED pvp.

There will not be KDF vs FED only queues.
There will not be FED vs FED only queues.
There will not be KDF vs KDF only queues.

There will just be... PVP queues, period.

Making PVP profitable isn't really a consideration at the moment either. You shouldn't get all that wrapped up in how we do or don't make money on something. PVP is just like any other type of content we make. We just want you to log in and play the game. If we can get PVP to a place where lots of people want to log in and do it then it becomes profitable.

There also seems to be a bit of confusion on this... (I'll highlight the area I think is causing the confusion)

"Right this moment, Iím the only resource PVP gets. My job is to figure out if I can find a way to improve the entire system in a way that does not impact development of the rest of the game in any significant way. Itís going to be a challenge to put it mildly, but Iím going to try. Iím going to do my best to make PVP a viable STO gameplay feature that appeals to a much larger audience than it does now."

"Right this moment" is the important bit here. I meant right now, as in today and most likely over the next couple of weeks.

I didn't mean I'm all your going to get or I'm going to be doing everything all by myself. That's not the way things work at a game company.

PVP having a dedicated person that "owns" it is a very big thing. There aren't that many things in STO that really have a dedicated person assigned to them. In fact PVP is really just one of three I can think of.

DOFF's - Heretic
STF's - Me
PVP - Me

It means that I can go to a producer and say "I really need a few days of programmer time to add feature XYZ to PVP" and as long as it's a reasonable request It will happen.

It means I can go over to the systems team and say "Hey I'm seeing reports of xyz causing issues in PVP" and they will look into it and get back to me with an answer.

It means I can go over to Dan and say "I really need these 4 new maps added to PVP with the next seasonal update, and they will get added to the schedule."

All of these things are something that PVP has never had and I believe it will make a huge difference.
I got warm fuzzies from reading this. Well if you can follow through on it that is.

And on a completely unrelated aside... Hey now that the staff is a growing talent pool, anyway anyone want's to "own" the KDF?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
05-12-2012, 03:36 AM
Oh, Gozer, would you say this will be a more challenging or less challenging undertaking then reinvigorating the STFs?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
05-12-2012, 03:45 AM
Hm... all PvP will be cross-faction queues?

Will anyone bother with making a sense out of that, story-wise? Does it mean we will finally have peace between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and we all will be doing friendly maneuvers together?

Edit: And what about Ker'rat and other open PvP options?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
05-12-2012, 03:47 AM
so what, pvpers are less then 1% or something? are you sure your not just looking at the numbers for ground pvp? there are a ton of people in space pvp all the time, rarely do i have to wait 5 minutes for a match even when im kdf, its usually instantly or under a minute.

the fact that 99.9% of STO players can log on, doff, pve, and stf and have enough fun to do it all again tomorrow... i just don't see how that's possible. the basic game engine is GREAT, but when there isn't another player to shot at it isn't even the same game, its so unbelievably poor and boring when its just npc's around. how the hell do people enjoy shooting helpless sponges that look like starships? for 2 years plus?!

im shocked this game still has players with just how unfun anything non pvp is. pve is so bad that it must literally reduces the iq and reaction time of the players, or chrono proc their brain. is most of the pve player base in their 60s or something? is this their first computer game, let alone mmo, because its startrek? about 80% of the players i encounter must be blind amputees, it boggles the mind just how terrible and helpless they are. so often its easier to kill them then it is npcs, they only have a 3rd of the hitpoints after all.

lack of balance, overpowered items and sets, carriers and pets, non of those things being 'fixed' will do anything to save pvp. the problem with pvp is npcs, no im not talking about pets. pvp cant be fixed, REPEAT CANT BE FIXED, unless npc stats, abilities and weapons are clean sheet redone, at least in higher difficulties. the D'd defender shows it can be done in this engine with this ai, this is far from an impossible task.

if npc's continue to literally be the opposite of player ships, and pve cant teach players how to play to their ship's potential, pvp will forever be scorned by 98.628% of players when they wade into it and are 1 shoted. those players just got done slaughtering hundreds of ships full of millions of crew, they are the biggest bad *** in the entire galaxy, and a defiant or bop just killed them in a second. this is why there arent more people in the ques, their pathetic ego cannot take such humiliation, and pvp is the only thing in this game that doesn't pat you on the back no mater what.

gozer, unless your willing to address pve npc's design and make it something that actually teaches players how to play within at least 15% of their ships potential, don't even bother, seriously. just walk away now and leave pvp the way it is. just have someone drop by from time to time and absorb what we post about in the pvp section about whats broken and severely needs tuning. do away with pvp and im gone, there isn't a single other thing worth playing everyday as far as im concerned. and its not because the stories and quality of the environments and stuff is poor, they are absolutely great, there is real talent at work here and it shows. it is purely the pve game play, and the player base it has created. you can literally play through pve to level cap at 1% your ships capability just fine, i know this because i see those 1% people in pug stfs.

well, if its not all npc's in the whole game being overhauled, it needs to be the gameplay itself. starting with basically the removal of spike healing and spike damage completely. if it takes a wile to kill or be killed, no mater how good or bad you are, that's time for people who ain't to good to actually have fun. if its slowed down, they have a chance to understand whats happening, they have time to fire off buffs to prolong their life, they have a chance to learn to play. currently for us pro leet haxorz, it kinda feels 'slowed' like that already, but thats because we know the game play inside out. it would still feel like a game of inches to us, even though it would be much different, and it would feel more like what thier used to, only turned up to 11... or 30. but if pvp is ever to be played and mater, something like this, or decent npc are needed.

i can go into excruciating detail about what to do, but that's for another thread i think.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
05-12-2012, 04:08 AM
Thanks for the update Gozer. I don't PvP because there I don't like to be overly competative and be called a noob by folks beating me up and folks on my team not thinking I'm good enough. Also the only reward I think is Delithium and I can get that plenty of other places. Maybe offer Lobi crystals and that would get me in a PvP queue.

I really hope the folks in this thread are smart enought to work with you and not fly off the handle like the forum folks usually do. The only advice I can give is try to come up with a way that even losing in PvP still manages to be fun.

Maybe the game needs more play modes like juggernaut (team vs 1 player), or a zombie mode (one zombie then each killed player becomes a zombie).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
05-12-2012, 04:11 AM
i think what goz meant was there will be 1 que per match type and kdf and feds would be mixed in matches,

i would be sad to see pvp go...... i have completed all episodes (some of them multiple times) and did stf's until my eye started bleeding..... pvp is all i have left to do.......
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
05-12-2012, 04:18 AM
If the removal of faction to faction PVP is to be removed, I'd propose that they simply end the war between the Feds and KDF and open up all the Fed missions and space to the KDF as well. I'd also open up the KDF as a playable faction from lvl 0 and sort out a tutorial for them. If the dev team does not have the resources to make 2 distinct factiosn, surely it is easier to end the war and develop content that is used by both. PvP would then be just labled as holographic wargames or something. This is all for the changes to make sence storyline wise ofcourse and to actually allow the KDF faction to grow in size, something the lvl 20 unlock does nothing to help!

As for some of the fundemental issues of PvP, I think the biggest issue is the changes that have been made the NPC difficulty and leveling speeds. Back in beta, space combat was far slower and a battle with a battleship could take a few minutes, what skills you used made a difference to the fight and you had to plan tactics for taking enemies down. However, as NPC's were made so much easier to kill, it furthered the gap between PvP and PvE. A problem to me is (space wise atleast) that the combat was made so fast paced that is gives the player very little time to react in PvP.

Also I deplore the queue system and still believe it is broken somehow. The time I have to wait for PvE and PvP content sometimes makes no sence. I miss the days where I could enter Fleet Actions without having to queue and I think this is an issue for PvP as well somewhat. I'm sure merging all the queues will help this somewhat though.

I'll admit I don't really PvP that much, I used to back at the games launch on my KDF captain, but I just don't find it fun, I think maybe it's because the game feels so instanced as well (another fundemental issue). What I'd love is very large sector space maps with open PvP that players can enter. Maybe the Fleet Starbases in season 6 can be brought into all of this? Let PvP fleets have starbases in the neutral zone that can be attacked and defended? That would give the PvP fleets something to do for sure! My fear is however, that the PvP will be revamped without actually looking how to integrate it with other systems in the game. Currently new features seem to get added to the game without really trying to incorporate it with other elements, so they never really blend with the rest of the content.

I'm happy PvP is finaly getting looked at, although I'm somewhat dissapointed that only 1 person is looking at it, after the many promises over the years that dev's were looking and working on it, which is apparent now they were not.

I'd highly recommend that a test server is made purely for the PvP changes and that all teh major PvP guilds are invited to test the changes 'and' give feedback and advice for improving and making a new system. These changes really can not be made behind closed doors without proper feedback from teh dev's and the PvP community. Lets hope the communication keeps coming.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
05-12-2012, 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by Cryptic_Gozer
Hi folks welcome to a new feature - The PVP Weekly Update.

Every Friday before I leave the office for the day Iím going to jump into the PVP forums and give you an update. It may be a small update or it might be a big update. It may be a very simple ďthere is nothing notable to report this week, how is everyone doing?Ē sort of thing. Or, it could be ďhere is a list of big things that are on their way to you on Tribble. Go take a look and tell me what you thinkĒ sort of post.

Whatever it is, itís going to happen every week.

Todayís Topic Ė State of PVP in STO.

Put simply, the current state of PVP in STO = FAIL

I donít think I can be any clearer on this point. You the players donít like it, we the developers donít like it and all the data we pull from the servers backs up the statement as well. Now, we could start discussing why PVP is the way it is. There are lots of reasons, some you as players know and some you donít. Discussing that particular topic wouldnít move us forward, now is not the time to figure out who is to blame for what and why.

It is however time to move forward. The first question we (the developers) had to ask ourselves is can PVP be saved?

I donít use the word ďSavedĒ lightly. I donít mean fixed, updated, or fun. I literally mean saved.

Now, what Iím about to tell you is going to scare a few people, itís going to make some of you angry. Itís not meant to do either of those things, and please donít read into anything I type. Iím not trying to be sarcastic, blame you the players for anything, or infer that the opinions of the players in STO that care about PVP donít matter . I just want to make sure you understand where we are at in this process.

Right now because PVP is in such bad shape that we (the developers) have to decide if we think we can turn this problem around. Participation in PVP related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people that log in to the game and play in any significant way.

SeeÖ I told you.. scary. I know, some of you are reading this and getting angry. I understand but this is simply the bare naked truth.

Cryptic is a business and everything that makes up STO requires resources to develop, implement, and maintain. I think itís pretty obvious that since the launch of STO that PVP has not had a fair share of those resources allocated to it. This fact is the primary reason PVP is in the state that itís currently in.

Something has to be done, PVP cannot stay the way that it is now. We either have to try to save it, or take it out of the game completely. We have to allocate resources in order to save it and thatís where I come into the picture.

Right this moment, Iím the only resource PVP gets. My job is to figure out if I can find a way to improve the entire system in a way that does not impact development of the rest of the game in any significant way. Itís going to be a challenge to put it mildly, but Iím going to try. Iím going to do my best to make PVP a viable STO gameplay feature that appeals to a much larger audience than it does now.

Itís simply going to have to get better and appeal to a much larger group of players on a regular basis if itís going to survive. This also means that many of you are not going to like the changes I am forced to make in order to meet these goals, but before you get too upset at something I change you might want to consider the alternative, which would be no PVP at all.

There are big changes coming to PVP, some I think you are going to like, others no so much because no one likes change. Some are not going to make a whole lot of sense at the time because you wonít be seeing the whole long term plan I have in store for PVP over the course of the next year or so.

As far as these forums go, keep in mind that much of what is bothering you right now at this particular time in the current implementation of the PVP system isnít something Iím really going to get very involved with. Itís all going to have to change, and change in a very big way. Iím not going to spend much time trying to solve an current issue you might have right at this very moment when there is a very high probability that a month or two down the road a large scale change to the PVP system in general is going to solve the issue.

Here is an example..

I see lots of threads about KDF players having access to gear that FED players do not. This isnít going to be a problem in the new system since their will not be any FED vs KDF PVP. All PVP in the new system will be cross faction queues.

More information in next weekís edition..

Have a good weekend.

Very well said/written.

My opinion is that many of the issues plaguing pvp can be traced back to the platform, or the base game not being balanced (as much as possible) for it.

I would like to volunteer to offer my time to test any such changes and offer my (many) ideas on pvp game modes or rewards that could enhance the game!

Here's to the beginning of what hopefully will be the revitalization of PVP in STO!

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
05-12-2012, 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
[...] the problem with pvp is npcs, no im not talking about pets. pvp cant be fixed, REPEAT CANT BE FIXED, unless npc stats, abilities and weapons are clean sheet redone, at least in higher difficulties. the D'd defender shows it can be done in this engine with this ai, this is far from an impossible task.
I second that. Make the NPC's more competent from the start possibly with the bridge officers giving tactical advice in the missions to teach better space combat play, and the difference between PvP and PvE won't be so drastic any more.
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