Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 281
05-14-2012, 12:23 PM
Part of the issue with novice versus veteran players is that veteran players have figured out all the imbalances in the game and how to exploit them. If the devs actually balanced the factions/captain classes a huge part of the problem would be removed.

The next step is to offer incentives to stay in a fight. Currently none exist.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 282
05-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Aye. And until things are fixed correctly to allow the game to track proper statistics, the only thing we as players have any control over is how well prepared we are when we queue up. I'm not saying there isn't a lot of room for improvement but there are a lot of people who seem to be expecting the game to correct for their own deficiencies.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 283
05-14-2012, 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelus
Part of the issue with novice versus veteran players is that veteran players have figured out all the imbalances in the game and how to exploit them. If the devs actually balanced the factions/captain classes a huge part of the problem would be removed.

The next step is to offer incentives to stay in a fight. Currently none exist.
There are a lot of balance concerns but your statement, while true for some, is absolutely incorrect for others. Some veteran players have figured out how to win without exploiting imbalances. Sometimes people lose because they aren't very experienced and sometimes they lose because they just aren't very good. Not every new player who loses, lost because they got cheated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 284
05-14-2012, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
There are a lot of balance concerns but your statement, while true for some, is absolutely incorrect for others. Some veteran players have figured out how to win without exploiting imbalances. Sometimes people lose because they aren't very experienced and sometimes they lose because they just aren't very good. Not every new player who loses, lost because they got cheated.
Yes some people stink at pvp. Nobody is suggesting the game cater to them.

Balancing the game would not hurt skilled players.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 285
05-14-2012, 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelus
Yes some people stink at pvp.
I'm definitely one of them.

However, I am a team player, I prefer support roles over DPS, and I am educable. If PvP were fun for me to play, I'd be playing it. I'd even be willing to devote one of my character slots to a PvP support build.

But one slot wouldn't be enough, would it? One for space and one for ground, more like.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 286
05-14-2012, 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
But one slot wouldn't be enough, would it? One for space and one for ground, more like.
Whoa, let's not get ahead of yourself! LOLGround can wait. Unless you prefer it to LOLSpace. :p

I think overall, STO has making it harder to support several characters at once. THis used to be different, but with the grind focus of STFs and DOFFs, I find it really hard to play many different characters anymore. I think with the removal of most of the space/ground split, having a character that can do both is feasible, though. Whether oneself can actually manage to master both areas, I don't know, but it's probably also a question of the time you have for it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 287 To do list
05-14-2012, 02:26 PM
I've literally played this and done PvP since launch. I've seen two years of PvP come and go and this is my analysis of the current to-do model for PvP (as I see it) to get it in a place where it will add value to the STO brand:

1. Input lag - and this isn't strictly a STO only thing... WoW had this same issue till they smoothed out client-server responses (allowing the client to successfully input a command and then have the server either accept or reject the command.) Right now it is very very frustrating to have an entire 3x14ish bar of hotkeys and not being able to hit key BOFF powers in order because of input lag. This brings me to point 2...

2. Too many powers. Usually more is better, but not in a starship fighting game. Between consumables, BOFF powers, career powers and leveled powers, the barrier of entry (so to speak) for being able to effectively pilot your ship is very high. This speaks nothing towards sci ships who can probably fill 5 bars full of powers due to their innate subsystem targeting.

The remedy to this is either a complete rework of powers, or enfolding abilities like you did with skill points. Why do tacts need Attack pattern alpha as a toggleable skill? Simply make it a passive that activates (and amplifies x% more damage) for each attack pattern you use.

3. Premades vs PuGs - its a fact, this is the most unenjoyable way to PvP. If you want 5v5s, then have a separate queue for teams that WANT to fight 5v5. Leave the normal queue to teams of 2 or teams of 3.

4. Objective based gameplay is a must - and currently cap and hold is not worth the time spent playing it. It is a poor mans Arathi Basin from WoW - the only catch is that a) you gain points way too slowly, it takes WAY too long to turnover a node and ship survivability is so high you can't feasibly do anything but zerg-ball capture points and expect to have an impact.

My remedy would be CTF style, KOTF style gameplay with powerups that enhance variability. Off the top of my head you can look to Rift's "capture and hold" style gameplay where you have to "hold" an item to accrue points till you win. This item can be an ancient alien database - the only catch is it has a virus that spreads to and destroys your ship while you decode the database. Eventually the holder of the database dies (and a new ship must tractor it/pick it up/transport it to your cargo bay for analysis) and you repeat the struggle to obtain the database.

Add some powerups into the mix (such as ancient borg tech 100% damage for 30 seconds, Kazon manuevering pylons for 50% more speed/turn rate) etc and you will be moving in the right direction.

5. Ships are too survivable. This has been (attempted) to be remedied once already with a slight decrease in the "healers rule all" style of PvP to a more general "I can solo you forever" style of PvP.
The counter to this of course is the "I can alpha you every 3 minutes for your lifebar since I can subnuc all your buffs" which of course leads to a very boring paper-rock-scissor PvP experience.

This would have to tie-in with a BOFF power rework, but something needs to be done to clearly define career roles in PvP, and it can't be as black and white as "Tacts do damage, Engineers tank and heal things, Sci debuff and buff things."

More later
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 288
05-14-2012, 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trueheart
Hmm...

Trying to "force" people who don't like PVP into doing it simply so they can do a mission isn't going to be well for the game. Gozer could send me a check for $100 each week and I still wouldn't PVP... for some people there's simply nothing that will make them participate in it. I PVPd enough to get all the PVP related accolades and I simply hated the fact it was either super easy or impossible. Toss in the "normal" level of ego, chest beating and temper tantrums I have no desire to revisit that style of play and I can't see anything they can do to change the fundamental culture and experience of what PVP is.

I have to believe the "reach a broader scope of players" comment implies trying to reach out to players who are enjoying other PVP oriented games and try to get them into STO. There's really no point in trying to reach out to most of the non-PVPers in STO now... it's either something you enjoy or don't. If they want to grow PVP, reach out to people who enjoy PVP that aren't playing the game rather than try to coerce the existing casual, PVE oriented players into PVP.
I think forcing anybody to pvp or pve for the sake of loot is wrong. But as Dan trainor said, as a pvper you are forced into pve for pretty much the majority of gear. And that is also wrong. If cryptic is not willing to have separate gear for pvp, then I'm sure gozer will try to unify pvp with pve somehow, maybe starting by allowing players to get some edc through pvp. Also, as roach stayed, a better end game storyline could make more people jump on the pvp vagon. Really, why is kdf and ufp fighting for? Truth is that sto would have many more pvp players if there wouldn't be so many ballance issues and a better diversity of pvp content. Even a mixed pve and pvp content (an improved Kerrat or some variants) would pull more people into. I'm sure that whatever he'll do will be better that what we have right now. And looking to other games, pvp can definitely be a great source of endgame content and revenue.

Bottom line is that with a more appealing pvp content and ballance addressed, more people will do pvp. Also, a pvp walk trough mission, where the pve-er learns some basics (ballance shields, use of powers, etc), would also help. I've said it before, balancing the game so each class is effective in its own way won't hurt pve at all. Everybody will have a benefit from that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 289
05-14-2012, 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
I'm definitely one of them.

However, I am a team player, I prefer support roles over DPS, and I am educable. If PvP were fun for me to play, I'd be playing it. I'd even be willing to devote one of my character slots to a PvP support build.

But one slot wouldn't be enough, would it? One for space and one for ground, more like.
I believe this, even though doesn't sound completely new, is the main disease pvp has. For anybody that hard core pvp-ers, pvp is boring and meaningless. This issue has to be addressed first. Then I bet tons of people will start pvp-Ing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 290
05-14-2012, 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic_Gozer
Hi folks welcome to a new feature - The PVP Weekly Update.

Every Friday before I leave the office for the day Iím going to jump into the PVP forums and give you an update. It may be a small update or it might be a big update. It may be a very simple ďthere is nothing notable to report this week, how is everyone doing?Ē sort of thing. Or, it could be ďhere is a list of big things that are on their way to you on Tribble. Go take a look and tell me what you thinkĒ sort of post.

Whatever it is, itís going to happen every week.

Todayís Topic Ė State of PVP in STO.

Put simply, the current state of PVP in STO = FAIL

I donít think I can be any clearer on this point. You the players donít like it, we the developers donít like it and all the data we pull from the servers backs up the statement as well. Now, we could start discussing why PVP is the way it is. There are lots of reasons, some you as players know and some you donít. Discussing that particular topic wouldnít move us forward, now is not the time to figure out who is to blame for what and why.

It is however time to move forward. The first question we (the developers) had to ask ourselves is can PVP be saved?

I donít use the word ďSavedĒ lightly. I donít mean fixed, updated, or fun. I literally mean saved.

Now, what Iím about to tell you is going to scare a few people, itís going to make some of you angry. Itís not meant to do either of those things, and please donít read into anything I type. Iím not trying to be sarcastic, blame you the players for anything, or infer that the opinions of the players in STO that care about PVP donít matter . I just want to make sure you understand where we are at in this process.

Right now because PVP is in such bad shape that we (the developers) have to decide if we think we can turn this problem around. Participation in PVP related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people that log in to the game and play in any significant way.

SeeÖ I told you.. scary. I know, some of you are reading this and getting angry. I understand but this is simply the bare naked truth.

Cryptic is a business and everything that makes up STO requires resources to develop, implement, and maintain. I think itís pretty obvious that since the launch of STO that PVP has not had a fair share of those resources allocated to it. This fact is the primary reason PVP is in the state that itís currently in.

Something has to be done, PVP cannot stay the way that it is now. We either have to try to save it, or take it out of the game completely. We have to allocate resources in order to save it and thatís where I come into the picture.

Right this moment, Iím the only resource PVP gets. My job is to figure out if I can find a way to improve the entire system in a way that does not impact development of the rest of the game in any significant way. Itís going to be a challenge to put it mildly, but Iím going to try. Iím going to do my best to make PVP a viable STO gameplay feature that appeals to a much larger audience than it does now.

Itís simply going to have to get better and appeal to a much larger group of players on a regular basis if itís going to survive. This also means that many of you are not going to like the changes I am forced to make in order to meet these goals, but before you get too upset at something I change you might want to consider the alternative, which would be no PVP at all.

There are big changes coming to PVP, some I think you are going to like, others no so much because no one likes change. Some are not going to make a whole lot of sense at the time because you wonít be seeing the whole long term plan I have in store for PVP over the course of the next year or so.

As far as these forums go, keep in mind that much of what is bothering you right now at this particular time in the current implementation of the PVP system isnít something Iím really going to get very involved with. Itís all going to have to change, and change in a very big way. Iím not going to spend much time trying to solve an current issue you might have right at this very moment when there is a very high probability that a month or two down the road a large scale change to the PVP system in general is going to solve the issue.

Here is an example..

I see lots of threads about KDF players having access to gear that FED players do not. This isnít going to be a problem in the new system since their will not be any FED vs KDF PVP. All PVP in the new system will be cross faction queues.

More information in next weekís edition..

Have a good weekend.

Goz
Before you actually consider removing PVP from the game. I'd like you to consider an open TeamSpeak forum with those of us who DO PVP and consider it as the ONLY reason worth playing the game. Many of us are lifetime subs and we've done our grind. Love/hate each other, I think you'll find that we WILL agree about our feelings of tanking pvp. LISTEN to us...... HEED what we have to say. This isn't the first or last game most of us have pvp'ed in. You treat the players like we don't matter.... like we can't be constructive. Until this changes, you won't "save" PVP.
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