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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
05-13-2012, 11:51 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sketch5430 That being said, can you answer the question of where the thrust is coming from?
Sure thing Captain!

The thrust or force is coming from the 'zero wing' inside. Basically the air is constantly circulated over a circular shaped wing with an airfoil crossection. Thus this simulates the effect of flying because the magdrive turbine blade is doing both intake/exhaust work.

Now as we all know wings generate lift and they have to generate a lot of it to get something like.....say a big Boeing 747-8 off the ground (non-freighter). I thought why not use that 'force' in a different way? Since there is nothing in space (as we know it) the forward pressure of the wing will drive the craft forward. Rockets do this very thing by exhaust gas velocity. I'm just using what is already there.

I cannot speculate how fast a craft would go but theoretically my design produces 700K-lbs of lift/force. That's having two airfoils in the 'bulb'. As you can see from the simulation software it's showing around 420K-lbs, now multiply by 2 and you get 840K. I say it would bee 700K just to be on the safe side. Now imagine having a Gladius Class ship with two of my engines on it. One on each pylon. And lets say it weigh in at 15K Tons. We would have a 23:1 thrust per pound weight ratio!

An F/A-18 Superhornet weighs in at 65,000 lbs (max take off weight) and has 44,000 lbs-thrust (dual engines) and it goes 1300 + mph in earths atmosphere.

Now just off the top of my head, our ship flying around in space with no atmosphere to push on it or no way for our engine to stall and very little inertia (lack of liquid fuel slaoshing around) and almost no gravity....I'd venture to say that we'd be to able to hit upward of 200,000mph.

Oh here's the gimmie image:

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5937/capturencn.jpg

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
05-13-2012, 11:59 PM
That's interesting - an aero-thermodynamic engine that generates propulsive force internally using controlled airfoil effects.

That's what I could think of given my level of redneck "duct tape and cable ties" engineering.

If the theory works we could have some sort of closed-cycle self contained 'anti gravity' UFO drive that just sorts of hums around the sky with no visible exhaust.

I still can't figure out where the air comes from in deep space (unless its a closed cycle system with internal air supply in the ship.. sort of a propulsive HVAC) but your current explanation does give a lot more insight to the device's functionality

On for further discussions - positive start this evening!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
05-14-2012, 01:26 AM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by carmenara I still can't figure out where the air comes from in deep space (unless its a closed cycle system with internal air supply in the ship.
Yes! the air is self contained. The air flowing on the top side of the airfoil is only heated to about 120 F. The underside is at 32 F. There would be no icing because the I would be using (if this were tio become reality) dry oil free air. Because If I heated the air to say the temprature of a Bic lighter we'd comsume it all. This way it really never goes away, at least in theory. Or we could just use same 'temp' air all around?

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
05-14-2012, 01:52 AM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by spektre12 Yes! the air is self contained. The air flowing on the top side of the airfoil is only heated to about 120 F. The underside is at 32 F. There would be no icing because the I would be using (if this were tio become reality) dry oil free air. Because If I heated the air to say the temprature of a Bic lighter we'd comsume it all. This way it really never goes away, at least in theory. Or we could just use same 'temp' air all around?
I think we are presently limited by the concept that to produce thrust, you need some sort of jet coming out the tailpipe to produce 'reaction thrust'. This is why there is natural initial opposition to your self contained "UFO" propulsion.

However though continuous discussion on the basic principles of this "internal airfoil propulsion" it will be easier for more to study the concept and viability of it.

And another thing - we are on a science fiction forum. We should be open to more of these things.

I am not really concerned if we will see self-lifting devices on air and spacecraft - that will probably be long after I'm gone from this world.

But this is good inspiration. We're taking a simple aerodynamic principle and making it do things never before imagined. It doesn't matter if it's just a theory and a drawing. What matters is we have the drive to think, create, and to imagine.

We need more of these concept art and concept technology. That is why I read a lot of Victorian era science fiction. Many of them have a fantasy tune to them, and the technology is very wierd to us modern humans. But that doesn't matter.

Almost 2 centuries ago, Jules Verne dared to dream and dared to think big. That's why we have space shuttles and we have unlimited range submarines today. The mechanics are different. But the concept WORKS!

It is ideas such as presented in this very thread, that paves the way for Mankind's own exploration of the stars. Not on paper, but in physical reality.

Don't shoot down our ability to dream

So I would say. Damn the torpedoes and patent it. Who knows, we just might see a Boeing Self Lifting Engine in the far future
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
05-14-2012, 02:01 AM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by carmenara ISo I would say. Damn the torpedoes and patent it. Who knows, we just might see a Boeing Self Lifting Engine in the far future

Thank you for understanding! Yooooo rock Carmen!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
05-14-2012, 02:55 AM
The concepts were after all created in good faith and in the good spirit of progress. The effort must be honoured.

I believe too that Starfleet would present itself as open, communicative and supportive to all new ventures in the name of science.

That's probably why we can adapt Borg technology to use on Admiral level ships for STF missions. Science ftw
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
05-14-2012, 08:45 AM
You can't use ideal flow for your data at those conditions. Most airfoils stall at around a 15 degree angle of attack. You'll have significant flow separation, which leads to a loss of lift and greatly increased drag.

Also, the lift on the wing isn't generated magically: Newton's 3rd Law states that an equal and opposite reaction must be occurring on the airflow lifting the wing section. Since the flow never leaves the system, Newton's 1st Law states that the net effect on the system (the engine as a whole) will be 0.

If you exhaust the gas, then you have a ducted fan with static airfoil sections in the jet stream, which will provide some extra lift at the cost of reduced overall thrust.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
05-14-2012, 08:40 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by MandoKnight If you exhaust the gas, then you have a ducted fan with static airfoil sections in the jet stream, which will provide some extra lift at the cost of reduced overall thrust.
As I recall there were some very interesting ducted-fan propeller aircraft concepts Pre-WW2. They were quite insane looking.

I'm going to see if I can dig up some info on them. They were STOL capable due to the extra lift.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
05-16-2012, 11:13 PM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by spektre12 Yes! the air is self contained. The air flowing on the top side of the airfoil is only heated to about 120 F. The underside is at 32 F. There would be no icing because the I would be using (if this were tio become reality) dry oil free air. Because If I heated the air to say the temprature of a Bic lighter we'd comsume it all. This way it really never goes away, at least in theory. Or we could just use same 'temp' air all around?
If the air on the top side is heated, and it's all self-contained, then what keeps the heat from passing to the cooler air on the underside? In other words, how are you keeping the cool air cool?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
05-17-2012, 10:09 AM
Quote:
 Originally Posted by carmenara As I recall there were some very interesting ducted-fan propeller aircraft concepts Pre-WW2. They were quite insane looking. I'm going to see if I can dig up some info on them. They were STOL capable due to the extra lift.
There's also the Martin Jetpack, which is what I think of when I hear or use the phrase "ducted fan." Similarly, the F-35B STOVL variant (recently featured in the Avengers!) has a "lift fan" powered by the main engine for vertical landing.

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