Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 271
05-30-2012, 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
I am saying that given the current structure of the game, it is a lot easier to max out a character (at least on a practical level) than to explore all the existing content, so even though your statement is technically true, it is not necessarily STO's greatest challenge.

For additional content to matter, it has to have relevance (which is why there are calls for rewards to be tied to foundry missions).

I am also saying that many, possibly most MMO's charge for some or all additional mission content, often above and beyond any sub fees (at least in the case of EQ, EQ2, and WoW).
I agree with all of that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 272
05-30-2012, 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Hey, I wasn't there when they sped things up or I would have argued they went overboard. That is a separate debate though, isn't it?
Not really.

You're claiming we have more content than is needed to level as if we have some overabundance of content. We don't. We only have more content than it takes to level because the devs took a shortcut in an effort to hide how little content there really is.

Its entirely possible to do and see everything this game has in less than a month, and the content isn't so good that I'd want to keep doing it again and again. This game still has less content two years in than most any other game has on launch day. Couple that with rumblings we've been hearing about how the only 'official' source of story and content we have may be on the chopping block (FEs), and the journey is looking like we're running in circles for the foreseeable future. Very small circles at that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 273
05-30-2012, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hravik
Not really.

You're claiming we have more content than is needed to level as if we have some overabundance of content. We don't. We only have more content than it takes to level because the devs took a shortcut in an effort to hide how little content there really is.

Its entirely possible to do and see everything this game has in less than a month, and the content isn't so good that I'd want to keep doing it again and again. This game still has less content two years in than most any other game has on launch day. Couple that with rumblings we've been hearing about how the only 'official' source of story and content we have may be on the chopping block (FEs), and the journey is looking like we're running in circles for the foreseeable future. Very small circles at that.
Not all players play for the stories. In fact, in my experience, most do not. Most play for various forms of advancement.

The ability to max out a character quickly for most purposes thus, for most players, results in an overabundance of content.

In fact much of the lower level content (i.e. taking on missions in lower tier ships as lower tier characters) is bypassed by way of the advancement rate.

For those who are drawn primarily to stories and plot rather than to tactical challenges, it would indeed seem the opposite. That group may well include yourself.

It also doesn't help that the content is set up in a linear fashion, so you can't easily omit the Klingon front with a character and level up on one of the other fronts instead. As such, the excess content is further wasted.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 274
05-31-2012, 04:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aelfwin View Post
Yeah , but then again we can say without lying that some Devs are guilty of the same thing .
Thing is , we are fans ... , while they are supposed to be pro's .

What's that they say about never letting fans dictate development ?
Since some of the Devs are fans as well , I guess that means we're f-ed .
Could be. I would like to think that being fans they would have the passion to do more for the IP.



As to being able to level a toon to 50 and still have plenty of content left to play ( as another poster pointed out) as a sign that STO has plenty of content. This is a false truth.
I can level a toon to 50 in a few days by doing the same 5-6 missions over and over again, ad nausieum, ignoring everything else in the game.
Just becuase I can do so does not point to STO having plenty of content to enjoy. It points to STO having a leveling curve that is way too fast for the content it does have in the game.
We can always use more content to drive the storyline.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 275
05-31-2012, 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Not all players play for the stories. In fact, in my experience, most do not. Most play for various forms of advancement.
Where is your proof?

Quote:
The ability to max out a character quickly for most purposes thus, for most players, results in an overabundance of content.
Had they not increased the leveling rate, you would not be saying this

Quote:
In fact much of the lower level content (i.e. taking on missions in lower tier ships as lower tier characters) is bypassed by way of the advancement rate.
That is the point. The content was designed originally to be paced with the leveling rate. That has been changed to give the devs a pass on creating content. The truth is that we can see everything the game offers in a month. TWO months maybe if one takes a more laid-back approach to gameplay. All themepark MMOs suffer from the same thing. You come to the end of content and have to wait for new content to be added. We have a system in place that let the community churn out missions at a phenomenal rate, some of which are more respective of Star Trek than the Devs have been with official missions. If Cryptic were to hire one person fully versed on Foundry, give them a mandatory handbook on what can and cannot be done without prior approval, then CRYPTIC could be the ones churning out content at a phenomenal rate compared to other MMOs. That right there would draw players to STO, because people grow tired of playing the waiting game with content.

Which MMO would draw YOUR attention more: One that offers a new playable content at least every month, or one that offers new playable content with expansions that come out maybe every nine months to a year? And remember... no matter how much predesigned playable content comes with an expansion, it will be exhausted by most players LONG before the next expansion is even announced.

Quote:
For those who are drawn primarily to stories and plot rather than to tactical challenges, it would indeed seem the opposite. That group may well include yourself.
What tactical challenge? Running the same STF over and over and over and over and over and over?

What tactical challenge? Running the same PvP zones over and over and over and over and over?

Maybe you aren't burned out on it yet, but even among those who do not play for story and plot, many are sick of nothing really new being added for so long. Season 6 was originally SUPPOSED to be the PvP revamp season. Something tells me that Seaso 7 won't be it either.

Quote:
It also doesn't help that the content is set up in a linear fashion, so you can't easily omit the Klingon front with a character and level up on one of the other fronts instead. As such, the excess content is further wasted.
If they would total up the skill point payout for their linear progression through UFP story content, divide that by 50, and make that result be how much it takes to ding each level, then achieving Vice Admiral (which the game defines as the highest possible rank) would would mark the completion of pre-existing content.

And every time they add new story missions, they should rebalance the skill point payouts to keep it apace... Unless they finally decide to grant us the full Admiral rank.

Bottom line. It isn't just story content that is lacking. It's content in every gameplay type that is short.

At least Cryptic has stopped promising things. Instead they make excuses as to why they can't do this or that. Like I said elsewhere, they are the only game developer I know of that goes out of their way to not develop a game.

Content is key to the longevity of an MMO. SOE knows this. Look how many expansions they gave to EQ1 alone. Blizzard knows this, because in addition to their expansions, they manage to work in new things every now and then that give players something to do.

But Cryptic? We went a full year almost without seeing a bloody thing.

Yes we got a new FE series. One of what was supposed to be NINE, then reduced to two or three, now maybe not even that.

Yes the KDF got a new mission... One out of what was supposed to be a focused effort to bring the KDF on par with the UFP, which we have since been told will not be the case. Since launch over two years ago, the KDF has been given a grand total of NINE PvE misions.

Yes, we got the Borg invasion of Defera, and they have added stuff to it. But what about the rest of the game? Maybe some of us don't want to be stuck on defera for the rest of the life of the game.

Playable content is needed on a regular basis and in different places. It needs to be story content, STF content and PvP content.

Yes, there is more than enough content to level by, now that the leveling rate has been increased. But the so-called excess content can be knocked out in short order. And once it is exhausted the only option is to replay missions over and over. Or do STFs over and over. or run the same PvP zones over and over.

What is so wrong with wanting and asking for something new to do on an on-going basis?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 276
05-31-2012, 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainQuirk View Post
Where is your proof?
You want proof of my experience? I can accept your experience might be different, but experience is an essentially impossible thing to prove.

Quote:
Had they not increased the leveling rate, you would not be saying this
Maybe not, but they did. The state of the game is what it currently is.

Quote:
That is the point. The content was designed originally to be paced with the leveling rate. That has been changed to give the devs a pass on creating content. The truth is that we can see everything the game offers in a month. TWO months maybe if one takes a more laid-back approach to gameplay. All themepark MMOs suffer from the same thing. You come to the end of content and have to wait for new content to be added. We have a system in place that let the community churn out missions at a phenomenal rate, some of which are more respective of Star Trek than the Devs have been with official missions. If Cryptic were to hire one person fully versed on Foundry, give them a mandatory handbook on what can and cannot be done without prior approval, then CRYPTIC could be the ones churning out content at a phenomenal rate compared to other MMOs. That right there would draw players to STO, because people grow tired of playing the waiting game with content.
The ability to see all that there is in a month is true of most of the content in most MMO's most of the time, and
all of the content some of the time (after any given expansion is beaten, if you join a top guild after being power leveled up).

If you spend all of your time in one MMO, especially if you don't work, it is possible to burn through content at a very rapid pace. This is a side effect of designs based on an acceptable pace for those in full time employment, especially with families or other social activities in addition.

REGARDLESS, even though it may be possible to grind through all the content quickly, there is no incentive in STO to see probably at least 75% of what is there. Likely more if you include the Foundry. More content is not going to help a lot as long as it offers only minor incentives and is quick and easy to finish.

Quote:
Which MMO would draw YOUR attention more: One that offers a new playable content at least every month, or one that offers new playable content with expansions that come out maybe every nine months to a year? And remember... no matter how much predesigned playable content comes with an expansion, it will be exhausted by most players LONG before the next expansion is even announced.
Given I primarily play EQ, I can safely say once a year is fine by me. In fact EQ tried twice a year, but it wasn't a particularly good pace and proved problematic in terms of Mudflation issues, lesser guilds falling behind, etc.

Quote:
What tactical challenge? Running the same STF over and over and over and over and over and over?
Finding ways to get it done better for those who are not yet burnt out on them. Trying them on different characters in different ships and configurations. And for those into it, of course, PvP.

Quote:
What tactical challenge? Running the same PvP zones over and over and over and over and over?
PvP is about out-fighting your opponent, not usually the map.

Quote:
Maybe you aren't burned out on it yet, but even among those who do not play for story and plot, many are sick of nothing really new being added for so long. Season 6 was originally SUPPOSED to be the PvP revamp season. Something tells me that Seaso 7 won't be it either.

1) Depends on what they do with starbases. We haven't yet seen Season 6.
2) I said the leveling pace is the bigger issue, not that content is not an issue at all. What I was saying was (and is) is that the pace makes adding more content more problematic than in other MMO's.

[quote[If they would total up the skill point payout for their linear progression through UFP story content, divide that by 50, and make that result be how much it takes to ding each level, then achieving Vice Admiral (which the game defines as the highest possible rank) would would mark the completion of pre-existing content.
Lower the rates for reg exp from DOff missions would help a lot. Maybe up the DOff xps a bit to compensate. Right now you can bypass 'active' content entirely and level up most of the way via DOffs, yet at the same time it takes quite a while to get any DOff ranks beyond 2. That just seems backwards

Quote:
And every time they add new story missions, they should rebalance the skill point payouts to keep it apace... Unless they finally decide to grant us the full Admiral rank.
Not 'every' time. And the better approach would be to re-work the ranking system entirely. Not sure how feasable that would be at this point though.

Quote:
Bottom line. It isn't just story content that is lacking. It's content in every gameplay type that is short.
Welcome to MMO's. Pretty much all of them that I know of end up having artificial barriers to slow players down and stretch out the content.

Quote:
At least Cryptic has stopped promising things. Instead they make excuses as to why they can't do this or that. Like I said elsewhere, they are the only game developer I know of that goes out of their way to not develop a game.
Spoken like someone who has never worked or had to survive under a tight budget.

Quote:
Content is key to the longevity of an MMO. SOE knows this. Look how many expansions they gave to EQ1 alone. Blizzard knows this, because in addition to their expansions, they manage to work in new things every now and then that give players something to do.

But Cryptic? We went a full year almost without seeing a bloody thing.
When STO has the player base (and more importantly revenue stream) of EQ or WoW, then it will be able to afford similar content additions... and even then expansions are $20 to $40 each when new in those games. They are not free. And they are once a year or worse. WoW had expansions in 2007, 2008, and 2010. EQ currently manages once a year.

Quote:
Yes we got a new FE series. One of what was supposed to be NINE, then reduced to two or three, now maybe not even that.

Yes the KDF got a new mission... One out of what was supposed to be a focused effort to bring the KDF on par with the UFP, which we have since been told will not be the case. Since launch over two years ago, the KDF has been given a grand total of NINE PvE misions.

Yes, we got the Borg invasion of Defera, and they have added stuff to it. But what about the rest of the game? Maybe some of us don't want to be stuck on defera for the rest of the life of the game.
All of which were completely free with no charge to anyone.

Quote:
Playable content is needed on a regular basis and in different places. It needs to be story content, STF content and PvP content.
Paid for, how? Remember they still need to afford to keep the servers running in addition to any production costs for new content.

Quote:
Yes, there is more than enough content to level by, now that the leveling rate has been increased. But the so-called excess content can be knocked out in short order. And once it is exhausted the only option is to replay missions over and over. Or do STFs over and over. or run the same PvP zones over and over.

What is so wrong with wanting and asking for something new to do on an on-going basis?
That it can be knocked out in short order is academic without reason to do so. As for replaying content over and over, welcome to to the world of MMO's. That is normal in the industry.

Wanting and asking is fine. Completely ignoring the impracticality of the requests is another matter.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 277
05-31-2012, 09:03 AM
This is why i think that PvP and PvE maps could, and should, be handled by the foundry. They could easily do so, and come up with some really good stuff. In my perfect STO there are around 200 PvE missions and while some stay there permanently others are rotated in and out every month or so with some available randomly and others only at certain times of the year.

Sort of like the featured episode reruns are, with limited time rewards and all that Jazz. With the foundry on our side, we could easily crank out such a mechanic in a few months, it would involve the community, everyone else gets more content, Cryptic gets the glory and a happier fanbase, EVERYONE WINS!!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 278
05-31-2012, 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Spoken like someone who has never worked or had to survive under a tight budget.
I am curious as to how you'd describe the STO budget for 2010 ?
You know , when we got 4 STF's , 2 FE's , 8 KDF missions and a lot of fixes/upgrades .

How (under the "horrible" Atari) did Cryptic manage to pull that off ?
And also : how come that that was possible to do then , but suddenly it becomes impossible to do now (under such a "generous" new owner) ?

Quote:
EQ or WoW, then it will be able to afford similar content additions... and even then expansions are $20 to $40 each when new in those games. They are not free. And they are once a year or worse. WoW had expansions in 2007, 2008, and 2010. EQ currently manages once a year.
And I'm betting that each of those expansions somewhat rival (or go beyond) the expansion that STO had in it's first year .

Right now , two of the 4 group missions that are planned for season 6 are to be time gated .
Not because the players have asked for it .
But because Cryptic wants to pad-out their time gated missions library -- to make it seem like even tho events are time gated , there is "always something on" .
If they add 4-6 more missions like this , they may very well achieve that illusion -- but make no mistake , it is an illusion .
You will still be playing on their terms , with the ability to choose your game taken away .


Quote:
Wanting and asking is fine. Completely ignoring the impracticality of the requests is another matter.
So when players ask for STF's and are handed "STF like" time-gated material -- ask yourself why is that and is this what others MMO's do as well ?
After all , it has been proven (by the amount of players) that STF's the way they are are popular enough .
So why not give the players what they ask for ?
Is getting players to play according to Cryptic's timetable THAT important ?
Really ?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 279
05-31-2012, 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aelfwin View Post
I am curious as to how you'd describe the STO budget for 2010 ?
You know , when we got 4 STF's , 2 FE's , 8 KDF missions and a lot of fixes/upgrades .

How (under the "horrible" Atari) did Cryptic manage to pull that off ?
And also : how come that that was possible to do then , but suddenly it becomes impossible to do now (under such a "generous" new owner) ?
You mean in the first year while the were still selling significant numbers of LTS's, still might have had some money left from the initial investment/borrowing and before it was realized they weren't going to make the revenue figures they projected and presented to shareholders and/or lenders?

You mean then?

They were also still selling not just subs but the game itself and had that revenue. The number of interested buyers of any new game drops off (usually rapidly) after release, since those who want it most will already have it.

Quote:
And I'm betting that each of those expansions somewhat rival (or go beyond) the expansion that STO had in it's first year .
At a cost equal or similar to the cost of buying the entire game again, sure. And that til very recently has been with each and every player having to sub to play at all.

Quote:
Right now , two of the 4 group missions that are planned for season 6 are to be time gated .
Not because the players have asked for it .
But because Cryptic wants to pad-out their time gated missions library -- to make it seem like even tho events are time gated , there is "always something on" .
If they add 4-6 more missions like this , they may very well achieve that illusion -- but make no mistake , it is an illusion .
You will still be playing on their terms , with the ability to choose your game taken away .
Look, I don't like the majority of their gating system either. I don't think it works on any level and just frustrates and annoys players. I do understand the replay limits on STFs (raids in EQ have a 4 1/2 day replay timer), but the 'only available one hour a day even if you have never played it' gating is bizarre.

I am not arguing that STO is perfect in any stretch of the imagination. I am trying to explain why I think expectations with respect to new content are in many cases unreasonable, given STO's apparent situation.

Quote:
So when players ask for STF's and are handed "STF like" time-gated material -- ask yourself why is that and is this what others MMO's do as well ?
After all , it has been proven (by the amount of players) that STF's the way they are are popular enough .
So why not give the players what they ask for ?
Is getting players to play according to Cryptic's timetable THAT important ?
Really ?
But players are not asking for them to be added at additional fees. They are expecting them for no additional cost or to be included in their existing fees.

As I said above the gating is a separate issue and should be ended, or at least radically changed, but for the rest of it the 'why not' is almost certainly 'can't afford it.'
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 280
05-31-2012, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
[...] When STO has the player base (and more importantly revenue stream) of EQ or WoW, then it will be able to afford similar content additions... and even then expansions are $20 to $40 each when new in those games. They are not free. And they are once a year or worse. WoW had expansions in 2007, 2008, and 2010. EQ currently manages once a year. [...]
And how often did Blizzard add new things to do in content patches that were completely free? A new instance here, a new quest chain there, a new item set, whatever?
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