Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
05-20-2012, 11:54 AM
It's hard to deny that people are angry. In some cases I even agree.

For example, if I read your sig right, you and I were some of those who lost a great deal in the dilithium conversion?

I am not denying that some, in my opinion poor decisions have been made in all of this, but I also have to admit that good things have come from all the changes. Neither is in dispute.

But it is really much simpler to understand the frustrations, when people are in-depth with their reasons, and at the very least, we should try to keep our own path clear, so that we have the "right" to ask others to clear their own too.

I can't speak to if Cryptic/PWE care about the Star Trek franchise and what it represents. That is not really my theme at this point, and there are some good threads out there, that have some good discussions going on.
Those are the ones we need to take that sort of thing to. At a very least it will help keep those threads on top and show that there is actual concern. That way Cryptic can not deny that it's there either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
05-20-2012, 12:47 PM
I remember way back when, I posted something like this, It was summarily dismissed. Very few large groups of people can function for long as a unified group, unless they strive to be that way. People by nature, want to be individuals, You have to overcome that desire to stay unified. Will the STO community do it? Nope, never gonna happen, in spite of the ideals of the Franchise we all have in common, we have to many that will not sacrifice anything for the betterment of the group.

it is also hard to stay unified, when certain things are allowed to happen in a group that not everyone can do. Divide and conquer. I'm not saying that Cryptic, or PWE would desire a fractured player base, but for them it is much easier to manage a smaller group than a large one. Case in point the ship tokens, when they pulled them out, it created such a large faction of players united behind returning them that they couldn't defend it, and gave it back in part. Now, while some of us want to restore a single token to the gold players, since the group, is much smaller, we see very little to no action.

The only way large groups are that way, is they are forcibly forced into that, the Military is a classic example of this. Bootcamp, was designed to take away the individual, and put in its place, the group, the marines are a classic example of this, they're told to say "this marine" over the word I.

Of note, is the fact that in the military, you will find persons of every shade of humanity who no matter the price, are willing to give what ever it needs to see the group success. It can be done, but requires sacrifices that I'm sure many here would not endure.

That said, good luck, At least you weren't summarily dismissed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
05-20-2012, 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by m.parsons
The community is right to be angry. Perfect World and Cryptic seem to ONLY care about making money at this point.

In my opinion they no longer care about the Star Trek franchise and what it represents. And they could care less about the community has long has they can continue squeezing every last dime they can.
I don't agree with this statement, but it sheds some light on why people are disgruntled. A lot of players are feeling abandoned in the new F2P system. Now that the business isn't depending on their individual subs, they feel that they don't have any 'pull', and their passion doesn't seem to be as respected as it did when they needed to re-sub every month to keep paying Cryptic's bills.

There have been some new things to play, and some new things to play with, but this matters less to many than the fact that so much effort goes into courting impulse buyers instead of loyal, long-term players. I encourage players to look past this to see developers that are genuinely as interested in Trek as we are, but I understand that this matters less to many people than their impressions so far.

When someone feels abandoned and forgotten as a player, they're less likely to respond in long, reasonable discussions. I mean, if the developers don't care, what's the use, right? But Cryptic should try to do something to restore faith in them. Not that they've truly abandoned players IMO, but a gesture could be very helpful in making the 'forsaken' feel better and return to passionate discussion rather than upset despair.

Unfortunately, any gesture is bound to be uninteresting to some group of players, and it might just make them feel more put off that Cryptic doesn't care about their favorite content. What the disillusioned masses need is some genuine investment in something they care about, but whether this is feasible for the entire range of the community is debatable. There's got to be something that hits most of the bases, though, and hopefully Season 6 will include some features with this in mind.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
05-20-2012, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelturath
[Snip]
You're highlighting another problem... "Instant Answer"...
You are expecting them to have an answer right there without giving them time to work with ideas...
Maybe they're still researching if his system might be possible or not?

Just because they haven't said something about it, doesn't mean they are ignoring it or us.
I don't want to take a side here (but this a thread purely about the com so it's bound to be a bit onesided), but the Devs and Moderators etc. are just humans, they can and will make errors and might take some time when figuring out how to do something.
They cannot just push a button and have an answer...

Same with Branflakes, well it is entirely possible that he had seen and forwarded Suricatas Work and simply forgot to make a post about it or simply didn't thought about making a post and just reacted to all the "Where the effin' hell are the Devs?" Post?

Why do we need everytime someone had a brainfart (just generalizing) a dev jumping in and giving us a precise answer?

And then we have another problem, everytime a dev says something it is completely dissected and ripped apart even if it actually says nothing... or people jumping in joy because a Dev said something positive about an Idea and they think it's a clear "Go" for it and then act disappointed when it's not implemented right away and keep on ranting about how they are lied to and/or how they're ignored.

Edit: And Suricata is actually the happy anomaly in the norm of what I've said at least in how he presents and treats it but in my book "well thought out" is more then just a DIN A4 Page by far...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
05-20-2012, 01:44 PM
See... THIS is what I am talking about... People presenting their opinions, and thoughts behind that opinion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
05-20-2012, 02:23 PM
In my opinion... I don't know. I don't believe Cryptic doesn't care anymore. But F2P also gave the bean counters new influence. But even before that, and ignoring that, we always expected more from Cryptic than they could deliver. And Cryptic promised more than they could deliver. When Cryptic said major improvements to the KDF, people expected it to become a fully fledged factions. It got 8 new missions. That's plenty, and they were good missions. But people expected more, and Cryptic didn't do anything to lower the expectations to something reasonable, until the results were there and people were still angry.

I think there is still constructive feedback and reasoned opinions on the forums. But it's become less, because a lot of stuff has been said - and we also had too often the impression that our ideas fell on deaf ears. We latch onto Dev comments in threads in the hope that this time something will change. If you read the PvP forums, you'll see a lot of reasoned feedback there as well, and new, interesting topics emerged (like how to make it easier for people to get into PvP -before Gozer's weekly threads, this wasn't a major topic - not that there wasn't advice, but we rarely thought about more fundamental elemens. It may be that it has just been something in the water - the Sad Panda Cubs/PvP Academy efforts started before Gozer's threads, and there were similar attempts - that were less successful, it seems to me - to do the same.)

But there is always this nagging doubt that in the end, it's all pointless. Cryptic does what it wants to do and if we're lucky, it may at least be something we'll like well enough that some of us spend C-Points on - but fundamentally addressing player concerns and feedback ... unlikely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
05-20-2012, 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
See... THIS is what I am talking about... People presenting their opinions, and thoughts behind that opinion.
Yeah, because that turns out so well for them. After this latest banning, I think I'm pretty much done posting, which I'm sure you will all breathe a sigh of relief over. I'll pop in now and again, but the path to 2409 has been made abundantly clear to me in my inbox. I do want to address your post, though.


I have finished reading this entire thread, and I really don't have much more to offer than 'I told you so', so I'm not going to offer that. Instead, just going to share some of the experiences I've had with STO since I joined it in January.

I have a buddy that sent me a copy of this game while I was in theatre, and, not interested because it was Cryptic's show, I gave it to my LT. He and I both nerd over ST quite a lot, and when I handed him this unopened collector's edition box, he asked my why I gave it to him instead of playing it myself. I told him I had seven years of experience dealing with Cryptic and their policies, and I don't like playing games that make me angry because they basically defecate all over an Intellectual Property that I love. He looked skeptical. He started playing this game in DEC and left it in FEB.

When I got back stateside, that same friend of mine convinced me to give it a go. I did. And holy crap it was fun as hell, I even convinced my brother to join up, and some guys I knew from my squad. We made a fleet and had a hell of a lot of fun. For about two weeks.

Then they started noticing things, like ships not performing as they aught to, how broken so much of the skills were, NO endgame content, etc etc, the list goes on. I hear a lot of people expressing the naive 'but why do you need endgame content, there's plenty of mission in the Foundry' or whatever, but that's a subject for another post. Point being, I am now the only one that logs in, and my fleet is gone. I ended up joining a small group of good people that have a steadfast 'ignore it, it will get better' policy and kick you if you aren't a cheerleader. Thus, I don't express my distaste for the majority of design decisions made for this game.

The reason I'm saying all of this, is that in microcosm my experience answers all of your questions and addresses all of your concerns about 'community' and the 'direction the game is going'. We have reached the end of the line. Cryptic has mistreated and warped the IP to a point that it isn't even recognizable as ST. The long standing vets, which these days I am assuming are a minority, were once the backbone of a strong community that, while not completely unified, at least could get on the same page with the majority of issues. It isn't like that anymore because Cryptic has already expressed that they have no interest whatsoever in returning or long standing players.

Let me say that again. Cryptic has no interest in returning or long standing players.

No community can be formed or nurtured in an environment where the people that hold all of the cards have no interest in maintaining that community. It will and has devolved to two larger camps of 'lalala TBTB are my friends and I have faith in them' vs 'Uhhh if you sold us out for lockboxes and made a ton of money on it, WHERE IS THAT MONEY. WHY IS THIS GAME STILL A WRECK? ruUUAAAGGHHH'.

Like with my own small fleet (RIP) we discovered that the game has enough content to keep a dedicated semicasual player involved for about two weeks. Beyond that, it caters to no one and there is no defined plan for growth on the horizon. No community can remain resolute if there is nothing solid to stand on.

Although it doesn't matter what I think, what ANY of you that post on these forums think, I am going to post what I believe. I believe Cryptic dug themselves a massive hole of debt. I believe that this game is in the condition it's in because they made a ton of promises they didn't even bother to try keeping. I believe they saw dollar signs on the horizon and said whatever they thought the had to to reach them. I do not believe, at this point, that they ever intended to keep even a fraction of those promises. Calling them promises seems a little childish, but when you're selling something to someone and state your goals for the future it's often taken as a kind of verbal contract between a service provider and a subscriber. Or used to be.

I believe that Cryptic's lack of interest or concern in the doings and attitude of it's playerbase is indicative of a much larger problem. The modern MMO as we know it is changing. Into this. A nonstop scamfest designed to psychologically manipulate people into shelling out more and more for less and less. We in the West thought this asian mmo model couldn't succeed here, but Cryptic is proving us wrong, because you are all still logging in believing it will get better. I am telling you, it will not. This is the future of the MMO. It isn't Cryptic's fault, it's ours. Because we allow it, we allow ourselves to be conned and manipulated, and all they have to do is make one false promise after another to get us to log in. And we do.

I believe this board could be shut down and closed, as it is no long of any import whatsoever to Cryptic or their evil overlords. I believe that in this new model they have concocted, the only relevant information is 'what can we convince them to pay for vs the bare minimum of investment and time'. That is not a business model. That is a scheme.

This community and the people that populate it largely, imo, remain here because it is the last bastion of canon for the ST main time line. This is it. There is no more forthcoming canon to be had except for what is available here. That alone has kept me logging in for five months. But despite vigorous and well spoken point and protest, Cryptic has adamantly refused to 'keep up their end of the bargain'. I believe this is so because they feel no obligation whatever to the people that helped them get this far, despite their amateur efforts at an IP they were not competent to be writing in . The IP has suffered spectacularly under Cryptic, and it's not enough any more. The camel's back is broken, and it would take a succession of miracles to unbreak it at this point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
05-20-2012, 02:28 PM
Then help me change it? Ask people for the reasons behind their opinions... Let's not dismiss people who write short messages, but encourage them to be specific, and help them see how conversation is a good way to develop things.

I am not really the right person to give feedback on PvP. I am a PvE type of guy, and don't really pay much attention to balance and stuff because of that very reason.

I remember that about a year and a half ago, I posted some ideas for new PvP types, but it drowned in a mix of "meh cryptic won't do this" and other posts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
05-20-2012, 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SelorKiith View Post
You're highlighting another problem... "Instant Answer"...
You are expecting them to have an answer right there without giving them time to work with ideas...
Maybe they're still researching if his system might be possible or not?
Uhmm... no. From the initial post of the ship tier revamp thread till today it's been almost 3 months. Around 10 weeks should be more than enough to take a look at the proposal and decide whether it can or cannot be implemented.

As I've said, a simple single statement along the lines of "Right now it's too much work but we're keeping it in mind" would be enough to let the poster know that his suggestion actually made it through. This is one thing that was justly criticised in some other threads as well - with a few exceptions there is no communication from the devs to the users, it's pretty much all a one-way street.

Communication goes both ways. Would you be want to treated like that in your daily job, for example? You ask something, or make a suggestion, and only get silence back from your supervisor? You have a complaint in a restaurant, but the manager doesn't say a word? Giving someone the silent treatment is in my book quite impolite and not very professional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelorKiith View Post
Same with Branflakes, well it is entirely possible that he had seen and forwarded Suricatas Work and simply forgot to make a post about it or simply didn't thought about making a post and just reacted to all the "Where the effin' hell are the Devs?" Post?
I wasn't criticising BranFlakes for the late statement in the thread at all. It was nice that he let us know that he sent the suggestion to the devs. It's the silence that followed afterwards that I'm not okay with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelorKiith View Post
but in my book "well thought out" is more then just a DIN A4 Page by far...
In that case you'll never find any well thought out ideas here or any other gaming forum. And even in most game-development focused environments you'll need to look very carefully. Usually, if you need a wall'o'text stretching for over a DIN A4 page to describe a single feature or mechanic you're doing it very wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
05-20-2012, 04:10 PM
Personally i just think that Cryptic likes their surprises to much. If they were more open and honest with us it would solve a lot of problems, or at least give us something else to fight about. Sure it would be nice to have something added to the game that is met with widespread elation, singing and dancing, come out of nowhere. But those days are over, and have been for along time.

With the community as broken as it is. We need Cryptic to give us something to look forward too, even (or espessialy) if it means spilling the beans about what season six is bringing.

What I've gathered from myself, this forum, and this thread, is that we don't need Shiny, or flashy, or our huge demands met. We just want answers. Right now, Cryptic needs to give them.

Take the Upcoming Content page.

What's still coming? What's been axed? What's coming for certain? What's nice, but isn't likely? What are the time frames for the things still coming? What's the future of content?

While answering such questions would undoubtedly cause fights, It would at least give us something to talk about. Who knows, we might even get some good news out of the mix. Season Six needs to be open and honest, not full of (potentially nasty) surprises.

It would solve a lot of problems, or at least get rid of old ones, and give us new ones to rage about.

But Cryptic needs to remember, "Peace is good for business".
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:23 PM.