Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
05-23-2012, 11:39 AM
Just to be sure, the plasma manifold isn't worth it? I was going to remake my science captain and buy the oberth? I'm new though and don't really know how all the P2W items work. I though shield and aux boost would be great for pve and pvp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
05-23-2012, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by igorvalentine
Just to be sure, the plasma manifold isn't worth it? I was going to remake my science captain and buy the oberth? I'm new though and don't really know how all the P2W items work. I though shield and aux boost would be great for pve and pvp.
With the 2-fer batteries you get in the lockboxes it is a little obsolete
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 23
05-23-2012, 12:56 PM
As has already been pointed out, P2W is a bit of a misnomer or at least lends itself to a number of inaccurate assumptions. P2W is not an iWin button. It doesn't make awful players awesome but it does kill the curve. It isn't even the wins and losses that matter. It's the fun.

In this case, it is a poorly developed cluster of items and mechanics that have been released upon a system already heavily burdened by its own problematic mechanics. Some are too good. Some are too bad. Some don't interact intuitively, or even effectively, with things they are supposedly meant to interact with. In some cases it's a slight edge by itself and completely game ruining in conjunction with each additional unit.

It seems clear that many of these gimmicks were released as a cash grab, something I certainly don't fault Cryptic for. I want them to succeed in spite of themselves. In my opinion, a little more forethought could have made these things appealing without breaking anything. Of course overpowered items sell, that doesn't mean that a well balanced, carefully tested item won't. Now we've been inundated with this veritable flood of consoles and +1's that are so out of whack that it's difficult to bring things back to a reasonable level.

PvP is an addictive dynamic game play opportunity that is severely diminished every time something clearly out performs to the point of making any other option obsolete.

There is an argument to be made for sucking it up and dealing with it. Effectively, if you don't like it, get out. Eventually, if things get to a point where stuff works reasonably well as expected I'll be back on board that train myself. Unfortunately there are things that are wrong. There are things that aren't fun. This is the time to address them. This is how we'll help to make the game better.

We can dismiss everything we don't want to hear as whining. Who cares what anyone else thinks anyway? There are options built into the game to help filter out anything that might not jive with one's personal sense of self. Unlike a few of the items and mechanics in question, ignore seems to work reliably and exactly as expected.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
05-23-2012, 02:41 PM
Lets end the P2W debate once and for all. Some fleets (and some rotten apples) use it, some do not. If youve pvp'ed long enough you most likely already know who keeps getting seduced by using em u just ignore em and see them as an idiot player, and keep the rest for yourself. Dont ever acknowledge a 1v1 either. If ur unwantedly stuck with a P2w guy in an arena and u find urself 1v1'ing him just evasive out to the rest of the group.


If you see a premade using it, just dont fight them anymore. (Not saying u should just warp out of the queue because thats lame as well)

But if its Premade vs premade u can decide not to challenge them at all.

I'd say all good pvp'ers that have the ability to improve theirselves (without P2w) do not use P2w. Simple as that. (Ofcourse not all P2w is op, some are just funny like impulse capacitor and stuff)

I doubt anyone really cares about those.


P2w is again just a name for the consoles, but the only issue is the consoles that are way more effective at doing their job then their original non p2w console counterparts.
Lt. Commander
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# 25
05-23-2012, 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cenovita View Post
Buying CPs with Dilithium should be not allowed anymore.
I tend to disagree. This is a good way of getting those who want to spend much money to finance the game, while even those with little money can share the rewards.

(but ofc, dilithium rewards should be balanced to let players do the part of STO they want to do)


Quote:
Originally Posted by fallout23 View Post
Trust me, if you faced an actual GOOD premade that chose to all pick up AMS, theta, and the other one that slows your turn rate, and they chained it on you with actual team coordination, you would quickly change your mind about these abilities being easy to deal with. There are some ok premades currently using these tactics to try to compete with better premades, but we can all be thankful that a fleet like the pandas doesn't throw together a cheese2win premade setup and really give e1 something to complain about.
Do you think I would notice any difference? Would the insta-wipe feel worse in some way? Would I last 2 seconds in stead of 3 when targeted by "the asian bears that smile not"?

As for most of the not-top premades i face, they mostly use this stuff anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
In this case, it is a poorly developed cluster of items and mechanics that have been released upon a system already heavily burdened by its own problematic mechanics. Some are too good. Some are too bad. Some don't interact intuitively, or even effectively, with things they are supposedly meant to interact with. In some cases it's a slight edge by itself and completely game ruining in conjunction with each additional unit.
And some are more of p2g (pay to grief) than p2w...
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 26
05-24-2012, 09:57 PM
Quick sort of question here. What about Doffs? Are they pay to win? And really I don't even mean that. What I mean is does the community at large consider them must haves or you will be at a severe disadvantage? Is it generally considered a "good thing" that some combinations of Very Rare Doffs give exceptionally strong performance boosts?

This isn't sour grapes. Many of these Doffs are on the exchange for a few million each and turning a Key into a million EC takes less than a minute. So anyone can get them one way or another. My primary ship is optimized to not really need or even really be able to use much in the way of Doffs or C store consoles with the exception of Impulse Cap but I have several other Characters that can and do.

So are we in a position again with Doffs like we were with the old engineering +35% to shields consoles? With the added bonus of there is no real counter to the ways that Doffs enhance a players ships. Or ground. For those five guys that PvP ground, there you go. You got a byline.

Most of the consoles really aren't so powerful any longer. People have learned the counters whether it be through an ability or ship piloting. Some consoles have been tuned down. Doffs just keep getting better.

I'm not saying consoles are fair and balanced or that they all work in a reasonable manner. I'm just saying that they never approached the level of OP that doffs are bringing to the game in ways that a couple of months ago we were only guessing at.

And don't get me started on dual system batteries. There's a game changer. Now a BOP can have shields, engines, and a Devidian Device. Doesn't seem like much. But it is. On the other hand I believe there was an entire thread on tossing consumables out of PvP. And that's not even team batteries. See? I got started

I had a point here somewhere.

Does anyone else feel that certain new elements in pvp, namely doffs and consumables, are so strong that if you don't take advantage of them you are putting yourself at a substantial disadvantage? And if you do believe this is true do you think that that is okay?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
05-24-2012, 10:09 PM
doffs are hilariously op. the right doffs can give you the strongest shield heal in the game, double the potency of science powers and tactics, and can basically give you 2 copies of all the team and EPt skills, or a free LTC station power as i like to think of it.

boy does my tac excelsior like having ET3 and A2S3 every 15 seconds. 2 copies of TT for the price of 1 is always handy too, wile not giving up my LT and LTC tac powers for another copy. this along with the shield distribute doff nearly double my total survivability.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 28
05-24-2012, 10:52 PM
There are a lot of things out of balance. P2W is only a part of it. For the most part (sans lotto ships) C-Store stuff isn't as out of whack atm as other things.

Personally what I'd least like to face in order starting from least:

1. All Lock box team (escort & dps cruiser, not sure the galor is though) w/consoles
2. All phaser team
3. a. 3 or more cross healing Fed carriers (mainly b/c of phaser proc et al pets)
b. 3 or more cross healing KDF carriers (immunity console & trics & cronts et al pets)
4. Team of C-Store console spam
5. Team of all +1 C-Store ships
6. Team of all sci caps who spam lots of sci & mines to lag the crap out of my older vid card
7. Tet glider team
8. OP doffs (some seem ok others aren't working as intended or are just OP by design)

As far as doffs go one problem is things still aren't working as dev intended. The dev stated the goal was to require 3 purp doffs (for those which stacked) to achieve the max effect. So, for example if you wanted to max TT cooldown you'd have to use 3 purp doffs. Last I checked this stuff was still buggy and double ticked effects. A second problem as has been mentioned is Doffs which are just too effective. 1 Shield distribution doff has more healing then Transfer shields 3 last I checked. Warp Core Eng gives up to +25 power to all systems each proc. Then theirs the flight deck doffs ...

As far as using/abusing OP stuff I go back & forth, but personally I prefer to not do so as a rule of thumb. On the otherhand I have no problem fighting fire w/fire and even doing so in what I feel is the most annoying way possible depending on what I'm having to put up with.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
05-25-2012, 02:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
doffs are hilariously op. the right doffs can give you the strongest shield heal in the game, double the potency of science powers and tactics, and can basically give you 2 copies of all the team and EPt skills, or a free LTC station power as i like to think of it.

boy does my tac excelsior like having ET3 and A2S3 every 15 seconds. 2 copies of TT for the price of 1 is always handy too, wile not giving up my LT and LTC tac powers for another copy. this along with the shield distribute doff nearly double my total survivability.
This is just it! If we have enough OP stacking doffs, they will no longer be OP!

Ok, for a straight copy-paste escort or cruiser that most people fly, having 3 copies of Vog the Faithless (shield) may be the best thing... but wait, if you want to half the CD of your team, you need 3 other doffs! And so on...

IMO, the only problem with doffs is that many of them are UP (underpowered). In a good and entertaining doff system, I want to have to choose between 15 different doffs, and I want having to give up any of those 15 doffs to be painful to me.

Just imagine if they were to let the warp core engineer be slotted 3 times... Each one giving a 20% chance of increased power when using EPtoX.. You're in a cruiser, and you want 3 of those guys, 3 shield guys, and 3 guys helping your engineering team (and maybe even some guys helping your sci or tac teams). Now you will have to choose! I really love how the doff system has given us the chance to further customize our ships, in a way that has direct and noticable effect on gameplay. I would hate for the doff system to be reduced to a barely noticeable effect.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
05-25-2012, 02:57 AM
People find P2W consoles (not all but a fair few) OP, but as the OP said, you can get them with dilithium and not real money, which suits me, I haven't baught anything this year except the Oddy pack with real money, the rest was dilithium, plus there's the console being thrown in scamboxes.

But at the end of the day, there's nothing anyone can do here except talk about ways of bringing them down.
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