Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
This is probably a vent/rant, so I apologize ahead of time, but having just failed three back to back elite stf's and finally being fed up with it, I'm going to once again add my voice to the many being steadfastly ignored by Cryptic.


First point: Do away with the death penalty timer. Cryptic, this dubious mechanic is obviously not doing what you intended it to do. It is NOT promoting better play. It is doing the opposite. In Cure, I now have rainbow spoonwhales pinwheeling around the kang not engaging anything because they are 'a heal boat' and 'don't want to get penalty boxed'. This mechanic has been in place long enough to deduce it's failure. Remove it.

Second: Cryptic, things have gotten bad with elite stfs. I know the apologist party line of this is 'join a fleet' and I've even done that, but I shouldn't have to with elite stfs. You will institute a gating mechanic with a badge requirement for successful completion of objectives for all stfs. A minimum of ten for each variation, achieving the optional on each. This will either fix the problem or highlight for you where your failure specifically occurred so that you can remedy it.

Third: Cryptic, your drop and loot tables are still broken. Of course, since we can't see the backend metrics for it, the entire issue remains conveniently clouded and all justification for this position become anecdotal and hyperbolic. HOWEVER. The sheer quantity of voices informing you that you have made an error are not saying it because they 'want something they haven't worked for' or 'they don't have the whole picture'. They're saying it because the average person is having to do over two hundred STF's to get a piece of gear necessary to function at top end elite stfs. This is unacceptable. I have heard the apologist line of thought that the development team 'never understood why people grind stf's' I believe it was Gozer that said that during an interview with STOked. If you are that out of touch and unaware how the MMO industry works, resign and allow someone competent and armed with a basic understanding of the dynamics of MMOs to perform your function. This is not an issue that should ever be debated, it's a staple of MMO construction and one of the most basic at that. Since you steadfastly refuse to provide endgame content, there is only the STF treadmill that people have to turn to if the wish to remain active with STO. The process of grind is a basic part of the time invested/risk vs reward equation that this game has failed utterly to build itself around. Fix it. It's not hard. I will help you if you need it. So will a lot of people on this forum, who have probably already solved all of your problems over the years if you would bother to read these forums.

I do not want STO to die. I want it to persist. But these absurd mechanics, broken loot tables, endless scams and scandalous Cstore prices make this game a very, very tough sell. Please address these three issues immediately. This will put you in good stead until Season 6 debuts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
05-27-2012, 05:57 PM
This isn't just a comment for you, it's for a lot of people: I really don't understand why people are so offended at the concept of having to join a fleet/guild to play end-game team content. This is an MMO, isn't it?

And saying "you must complete x number of Normals/optionals before you can do Elite" won't work. People can be carried, be lucky, or just be so damned persistent that they'll grind out the badges and get to the Eliites. They might still be rubbish at them. Other people could be fast learners who'd be ready for Elites well before gaining the necessary accolade.

If Cryptic want to improve the ability of the 'average' player to play in teams, then gating the Elite STFs until you've done a certain number of normals is not the answer. They need to put proper STF-esque 5 man missions in as part of the storyline missions as you level up. The Fleet Actions require absolutely minimal amount of co-operation (stay together and maybe target the same guy, advanced tactics) compared to an STF and aren't adequate preparation, if people even bother with them. Plus, the reward system in them encourages you to play for yourself, not for the team.

EDIT: How did you get the groups you failed, btw? Just PuGging, your fleet or an STF chat channel?

EDIT 2: My own opinion is that Elite STFs shouldn't be in the PvE queues anyway. They're not designed to be PuGged (I believe Gozer said this in as many words), so why put a big, tempting PvE instagroup button there?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
05-28-2012, 08:43 AM
First off OP...I feel your pain...nothing ruins a night like a really bad pug (I know its a game but no one likes to lose in a horrible fashion while at the same time spending 2 hours doing it)

I will say that I DON'T like the idea of a requirements to get into elite STFs, and while I have a variety of reasons for that imo, the biggest one is alt characters. At the risk of sounding arrogant I know how to fight elites and before going in with a new character I made sure i had the best possible 'non-stf gear' setup. Veteran players wouldn't want to spend a lot of time grinding normals just to get into elite...especially if its the bonus day...my new character ran enough KA last Wednesday to get all tricked out in one day

I do like the concept behind the spawn penalty but imo its broke some...for example if the entire teem is dead, auto revive everyone at the same time it should instantly rather than have em wait forever (and re spawn separately). If players are avoiding fighting because of the respawn timer...especially because such a thing doesn't hurt you at the end of the day (i.e. you don't loose experience or anything)..then wow..that's weak...haven't seen that yet and hope not to

Any who, I think Hot-Cancer is hitting the nail on the head here...the beginning game does nothing to prepare ya... LOL it makes me laugh how many people complain about the fast leveling process in this game...when most of those people complaining play 'normal' difficulty. Well ya..that's a breeze. I played my main toon on elite level play through all missions....took me forever but more importantly I learned how to actually fight the way I'm supposed to and how to heal with regens/components.

PS...Not always the case and can't speak to everyone's schedule but I almost never pug on weekend..almost always do on the bonus Wednesday....seems more vets, lets idiots, playing those days.... if that helps any...(and if you didn't know in your hail mission log, the screen that shows you what daily events are next ie Tour the Universe, Defera Invasion...click the calendar button at the bottom of that and it will show you which STF bonus day is next...this coming Wednesday its Infected ground and space...elite runs of those two nets ya 4 EDC and double dilithium)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
05-28-2012, 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot-Cancer View Post
This isn't just a comment for you, it's for a lot of people: I really don't understand why people are so offended at the concept of having to join a fleet/guild to play end-game team content. This is an MMO, isn't it?

And saying "you must complete x number of Normals/optionals before you can do Elite" won't work. People can be carried, be lucky, or just be so damned persistent that they'll grind out the badges and get to the Eliites. They might still be rubbish at them. Other people could be fast learners who'd be ready for Elites well before gaining the necessary accolade.

If Cryptic want to improve the ability of the 'average' player to play in teams, then gating the Elite STFs until you've done a certain number of normals is not the answer. They need to put proper STF-esque 5 man missions in as part of the storyline missions as you level up. The Fleet Actions require absolutely minimal amount of co-operation (stay together and maybe target the same guy, advanced tactics) compared to an STF and aren't adequate preparation, if people even bother with them. Plus, the reward system in them encourages you to play for yourself, not for the team.

EDIT: How did you get the groups you failed, btw? Just PuGging, your fleet or an STF chat channel?

EDIT 2: My own opinion is that Elite STFs shouldn't be in the PvE queues anyway. They're not designed to be PuGged (I believe Gozer said this in as many words), so why put a big, tempting PvE instagroup button there?
Well, I've not had to be in a fleet to successfully master eSTFs.

Also, as somebody else said, doing a "You must completely all 6 optionals 10 times in normal before unlocking elites" doesn't work. Partly cause yeah they can get 'carried'. Partly because like I know the fights, I knew them well enough when my KDF science officer hit 50, I instantly jumped into elite STFs without a problem.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
05-28-2012, 12:57 PM
The main problem I have with the Normal "gated" requirement is that NORMAL STF’s can set you up with some really bad habits when it comes time to start Elite ones. I tend to believe that many of the players that contribute to failed elite STF’s do so because they are in the “habit” of doing it on normal. I imagine the more times a player does it the “normal” way the harder it will be for them to grasp the “elite” procedure. This issue is compounded if the player doesn’t have a fleet to guide them or at the very least a PuG player willing to TRY to educate them (Nicely).
Maybe a simpler solution is the addition of a PuG “lobby” similar to the one provided in a group STF. That way one could ATTEMPT to bring everyone onto the same page without having to try and fight at the same time.
In truth no plan is fool proof because fools are so ingenious.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
05-28-2012, 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fashtall View Post
The main problem I have with the Normal "gated" requirement is that NORMAL STF’s can set you up with some really bad habits when it comes time to start Elite ones. I tend to believe that many of the players that contribute to failed elite STF’s do so because they are in the “habit” of doing it on normal. I imagine the more times a player does it the “normal” way the harder it will be for them to grasp the “elite” procedure. This issue is compounded if the player doesn’t have a fleet to guide them or at the very least a PuG player willing to TRY to educate them (Nicely).
Maybe a simpler solution is the addition of a PuG “lobby” similar to the one provided in a group STF. That way one could ATTEMPT to bring everyone onto the same page without having to try and fight at the same time.
In truth no plan is fool proof because fools are so ingenious.

I have tried. I used to have a standard blurb I give at the beginning of each stf. First I'll make a prompt, if no one responds to team chat then I know we have a problem. I used to fire off on my blurb anyway, but any more I don't bother. My Fleet is filled with a very good bunch of folks, but they're not on very often and don't do many elite stfs.

Thus I'm condemned to PuG them.

It's gotten to the point in the last few weeks where I just don't bother. These new players either lack the necessary intelligence to comprehend the importance of team work, are unconcerned with the welfare of the team or completion of objectives, or are simply griefers. More and more I'm tending to the latter. No amount of people can be that consistent in their stupidity without a malevolent motivation.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
05-28-2012, 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fashtall View Post
The main problem I have with the Normal "gated" requirement is that NORMAL STF’s can set you up with some really bad habits when it comes time to start Elite ones.
It shouldn't. I know I've tried a handful of times to get people onto the "elite" methods - 10% the generators, then a unified blow-em-up / rush kill gate, repeat on Infected, and have a gate stand at 10% while the other side is being worked over in KA. Every time I've tried this, there seems to be some "elitist" (aka veteran of Elite STFs) slummin' in normals who has to say "Normal STFs are so easy you don't need to use the strategy".

So far, I think I've participated in one Infected Space where we used the proper "elite" strategy. Have yet to see it in KA space, and I'm afraid to see how Cure space unfolds...

Therefore, I know that I'm gonna be an "elite-noob" when I finally finish kitting out my Sci with Mk XI [Borg] guns. Fortunately, my Sci's in a fleet that seems willing to train for elites. So let's see - 15 PuG runs for the Retro Borg set, 50+ PuG runs (between salvage and EDCs) for the Mk XI guns - yep, close to 100 chances that people could have trained me on "proper elite strategies", but 99 times that I've either been ignored, discouraged, or flat-out-told "don't bother" by the very same people who expect me to know what to do when I join them on an Elite STF!!!.

Thank you in advance...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
05-28-2012, 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Moloch View Post
This is probably a vent/rant, so I apologize ahead of time, but having just failed three back to back elite stf's and finally being fed up with it, I'm going to once again add my voice to the many being steadfastly ignored by Cryptic.
We all need a good rant from time to time. It's healthy to do so occasionally so don't worry too much about it


Quote:
First point: Do away with the death penalty timer. Cryptic, this dubious mechanic is obviously not doing what you intended it to do. It is NOT promoting better play. It is doing the opposite. In Cure, I now have rainbow spoonwhales pinwheeling around the kang not engaging anything because they are 'a heal boat' and 'don't want to get penalty boxed'. This mechanic has been in place long enough to deduce it's failure. Remove it.
I've been saying this for months and I do mean months. I saw the forum post which announced that it was coming and thought "it's going to have the opposite effect" pretty much right away. It puts everyone in a "I'm ok, screw you" mind set which is completely counter to the principles of team work.

Quote:
Second: Cryptic, things have gotten bad with elite stfs. I know the apologist party line of this is 'join a fleet' and I've even done that, but I shouldn't have to with elite stfs. You will institute a gating mechanic with a badge requirement for successful completion of objectives for all stfs. A minimum of ten for each variation, achieving the optional on each. This will either fix the problem or highlight for you where your failure specifically occurred so that you can remedy it.
Fleets are over-rated imo. I've had far too many bad experiences with them and the whole fleet thing tends to corral us all into insular little "cliques" who speak to few people outside the fleet.
MMO games are all about being social. Hell it's why multiplayer games where invented isn't it?!

Quote:
I do not want STO to die. I want it to persist. But these absurd mechanics, broken loot tables, endless scams and scandalous Cstore prices make this game a very, very tough sell. Please address these three issues immediately. This will put you in good stead until Season 6 debuts.
I don't want STO to die any time soon but the way things are going it's going to be more or less dead within 18 months. I only started back in feb when this whole thing went F2P and while I finished most of the content quite quickly I didn't get too bored. It was only a month or so ago that I really started getting aggravated by all the boxes, bugs, connection drops and downright broken segments in this game. They really got on my nerves and in the last month I have played maybe 1 hour.

:/
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
05-29-2012, 02:47 AM
Fleet membership is not that required for ELite STFs. PuGs can do them including the optional. But they'll also fail. A fleet is good because you will have reliable fleet mades. Probably.

I was thankfully only after the Mark XI set, because I know the Mark XII set is not that much better that it's worth agonizing about it. That said, Cryptic's problem with drops is that they have no way to avoid bad streaks. Overall, it leads to a small group of players that is very happy because they had a good streak (nothing wrong with that, really), and a large enough amount of players with bad streaks that get very vocal about it (which is something Cryptic needs to adress).

And of course, making your "special uber-duper-super-deluxe elite gear" only something attained by random drops in a high difficulty raid does not mark the person having it "special" or "skilled". It mostly means he was lucky. Less randomization. There would be nothing wrong with the gear if it was based on an Accolade that depends on you beating the Optionals 15 times, for example. (It may mean even more if there was a way to have an accolade require you to beat the optional 3 times in a row. That would be genuinely difficult to pull off. But with the anger management issues some Elite STFers have, it may be a nightmare for everyone involved.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
05-29-2012, 03:01 AM
Certainly agree with point number one, wholeheartly.

The increased death penalty timer is the answer to a question that no-one asked.
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