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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Hello, I am a VA Tactical Captain, who has primarily only flown Escorts.

As far as C-store ships I have purchased the Thunderchild, Tactical Escort - Refit, & Tactical Escort Retrofit.

These days I generally move back and forth between the Retrofit (swap out cloaking device for STFs) which is armed with antiprotons, and my Advanced Escort with Phasers.

Personally I am not a huge fan of the Retrofits, 3 tactical BOs, and not especially interested in dropping the 2000 C-points on the Multi-Vector Advanced Escort.

I had thought of getting the Galaxy-X while leveling up but seeing the limitations of the Cloak as well as dependency on Phasers.

With that said I am leveling up a Science Officer, who I want to end up on Nebula - Refit, so keep in mind I am at the moment planning to buy that anyways.

Now onto the Juice of the matter, I would like to pick up a ship for my Tactical Captain to have to supplement his selection of Escorts, and have been thinking of the following vessels.

Excelsior - Retrofit: Seen many good threads about her, good turning ration in comparison to other cruisers, both in regards to stats and BO layout. Enough engineering to stay alive, and Tactical to give good damage output, but 1600 c-points. I have always liked the look of this ship too and the class was still in service during TNG and maybe DS9.

Assault Cruiser: The Poor man's Excelsior. My question with this one is if I buy the Imperial Skin with C-points can my other toons claim one for free at appropriate rank, like other c-store purchases? Never tried this and it is a very important question to my decision.

Nebula - Retrofit. I will end up buying this eventually for my science captain. Universal Bo can become 2nd tactical BO. Slightly better turn rate than the Excelsior. Sub System Targeting (right?) But looses a front and rear weapon choice. Hull is only minutely better than my top escorts, but has a better shield modifier.

Ships I have discounted/not considered.

Odyssey: Too expensive and slow.
Intrepid & Intrepid refit: Like the appearance, but less hull than a escort, and not sold on the value of the ablative armor. Also 1600 pts, not worth it.
Galaxy Variants: waiting for the supposed bundle.
Reconnaissance Science Vessel: I actually like this one, other than the fact I would lose the Engineering Consoles to RCS accelerators and suffer in regards to Hull Plating. Not to keen on the weaker hull either.

Appearance wise I love the Excel and Nebula the most, but provided other toons can pick up a free assault cruiser not as part of their upgrade I would be tempted to just save the 1160 c-point difference between the Assault Cruiser and the Excelsior.

Now there is one other thing to keep in mind, which one of these ships can be made the most maneuverable, as I know I will have to use RCS accelerators and other tricks to make them dance so to speak. Any suggestions in that regard would also be appreciated.

So I am inclined to just spend the 440 on the Assault Cruiser Skin (provided I can claim that on other accounts) and grab the Nebula as well for 1600 pts for my science captain when he can use it.

I wish to ask the more experienced players if that sounds sensible.

Now if they ever do a Galaxy Class Bundle with a Galaxy-X with saucer separation..... well that is another thread entirely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
05-30-2012, 08:33 AM
Quote:
Reconnaissance Science Vessel: I actually like this one, other than the fact I would lose the Engineering Consoles to RCS accelerators and suffer in regards to Hull Plating. Not to keen on the weaker hull either.
I fly a recon as an engineer, and love it. Here's how to mitigate some of the problems...

1) 2 bits of Omega gear. The bonus turn speed from the shield when under fire compensates for the RCS accellerator

2) 2 Polarize Hulls + 2 of the Everything Armor in engineering consoles. Plenty of sci slots to keep polarize available.

3) Borg Engine + Borg Universal (sci console slot) gives good healing, which in conjunction with high resist, makes you quite durable

4) 3 Maintenance Engineers makes your Eng Team 1 available every 15 seconds to cap you up (or heal a buddy) and the extra hull regen boosts even further.




So between all that, the limited Hull gets stretched a lot further and, barring really nasty alphas, ends up being quite durable (my recon seems tougher than my Garumba, and I'm sure it's ALL about loadout.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
05-30-2012, 08:37 AM
Honestly, all of the cruisers pack the same relative punch and can stand toe to toe equally well against elite stf ships. That being said, it only comes down to what you want, a better boff choice (Excelsior), the slick majestic look (Sovereign) and the one hit wonder that can dish out amazing spike damage (Dreadnought).

All 3 of these ships can be made to maneuver pretty equally, even the dreadnought. Using aux to inertial II can make the dreadnought dance, maybe as graceful as a moose, but it can do it when pushed.

Science ship wise, the Nebula can stay in a fire fight the longest of the science ships and has a universal LT boff slot, but has the worst turn radius and lowest inertia rating. The Intrepid retrofit has slightly superior science stations and the ablative generator is very good for those "OMFGWTF" moments when your shields just got blasted down and your hull got slammed to 50% in a single shot. It is essentially 10 seconds of invulnerability and coupled with evasive maneuvers, can get you out of 99% of any problem that you have at the time.

In the end, it comes down to personal taste and what you want to do. If you like the ship and you want to use it, you can make it work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
05-30-2012, 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by potasssium
Hello, I am a VA Tactical Captain, who has primarily only flown Escorts.

As far as C-store ships I have purchased the Thunderchild, Tactical Escort - Refit, & Tactical Escort Retrofit.

These days I generally move back and forth between the Retrofit (swap out cloaking device for STFs) which is armed with antiprotons, and my Advanced Escort with Phasers.

Personally I am not a huge fan of the Retrofits, 3 tactical BOs, and not especially interested in dropping the 2000 C-points on the Multi-Vector Advanced Escort.

I had thought of getting the Galaxy-X while leveling up but seeing the limitations of the Cloak as well as dependency on Phasers.

With that said I am leveling up a Science Officer, who I want to end up on Nebula - Refit, so keep in mind I am at the moment planning to buy that anyways.

Now onto the Juice of the matter, I would like to pick up a ship for my Tactical Captain to have to supplement his selection of Escorts, and have been thinking of the following vessels.

Excelsior - Retrofit: Seen many good threads about her, good turning ration in comparison to other cruisers, both in regards to stats and BO layout. Enough engineering to stay alive, and Tactical to give good damage output, but 1600 c-points. I have always liked the look of this ship too and the class was still in service during TNG and maybe DS9.

Assault Cruiser: The Poor man's Excelsior. My question with this one is if I buy the Imperial Skin with C-points can my other toons claim one for free at appropriate rank, like other c-store purchases? Never tried this and it is a very important question to my decision.

Nebula - Retrofit. I will end up buying this eventually for my science captain. Universal Bo can become 2nd tactical BO. Slightly better turn rate than the Excelsior. Sub System Targeting (right?) But looses a front and rear weapon choice. Hull is only minutely better than my top escorts, but has a better shield modifier.

Ships I have discounted/not considered.

Odyssey: Too expensive and slow.
Intrepid & Intrepid refit: Like the appearance, but less hull than a escort, and not sold on the value of the ablative armor. Also 1600 pts, not worth it.
Galaxy Variants: waiting for the supposed bundle.
Reconnaissance Science Vessel: I actually like this one, other than the fact I would lose the Engineering Consoles to RCS accelerators and suffer in regards to Hull Plating. Not to keen on the weaker hull either.

Appearance wise I love the Excel and Nebula the most, but provided other toons can pick up a free assault cruiser not as part of their upgrade I would be tempted to just save the 1160 c-point difference between the Assault Cruiser and the Excelsior.

Now there is one other thing to keep in mind, which one of these ships can be made the most maneuverable, as I know I will have to use RCS accelerators and other tricks to make them dance so to speak. Any suggestions in that regard would also be appreciated.

So I am inclined to just spend the 440 on the Assault Cruiser Skin (provided I can claim that on other accounts) and grab the Nebula as well for 1600 pts for my science captain when he can use it.

I wish to ask the more experienced players if that sounds sensible.

Now if they ever do a Galaxy Class Bundle with a Galaxy-X with saucer separation..... well that is another thread entirely.
if it were me id go for the starcruiser, excelsior or the kitty carrier.

for kdf i prefer the kar'fi its my fave ship in the game (not imcluding my bugs from boxes)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
05-30-2012, 01:07 PM
If your looking at a ship with a turn rate of twelve and thinking that'll need three RCS your probably going to be happier sticking to Escorts.

A single RCS isn't too bad, using nothing but RCS means you should have picked a more agile ship. Your never going to be happy loading up four RCS into an Excelsior and trying to fly it like an Escort. That's why people use six beam arrays on a cruiser, good broardside DPS and you don't need to worry so much about turn rate.

As for your question about the Imperial skin, every character gets it for free, but they still need to buy or choose the Sovereign to apply it.

Can I suggest you try the Recon Science Vessel before you buy the Long Range, it turns a bit better and has an extra Tac Ensign on it.

The thing about science ships is you need a skill point build to support them more than Escorts and Cruisers, I know some people use them like light cruisers but to me they run full Aux power and do there damage in other ways, than pure firepower.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
05-30-2012, 05:01 PM
Ok, so I just spent a brief amount of time flying arround in my intrepid (captain level, not the refit) using the aegis set and a single RCS Accelerator which granted a 32% bonus.

At any rate that gave me something over a 20 degree turn rate, which is nimble enough for me.

At that time I had her outfitted with 2 DBB and a Quantum front, and 3 beam arrays rear, very fun for a change from my cannon/turret escorts.

Can a Galaxy-X, Excelsior, or Assault Cruiser push out that 20 degree turn rate between any of the sets and one or two RCS consoles?

For that matter can the Odyssey, get up to that 20 degree turn rate? It occurs to me there is very little reason to buy a Galaxy-X over an Odyssey.

And if so which would make a better beam boat, or are they all comparable?

In a Beam Boat is it preferable to have normal arrays or duals in front and normal arrays rear?

Edit: I also attempted normal cannons front with beams rear, and found that annoying.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
05-30-2012, 05:15 PM
I've purchased the MVAE, Vulcan D'kyr, Thunderchild (for the console), Yellowstone, Excelsior and a few others, so I've got a little or a lot of something for everything. With that said I was strictly an Escort lover, UNTIL I got my Excelsior with the advanced Transwarp drive. I've actually been using it on my ENG character so I've got Eng overkill, but I've got to admit I never thought I'd like a cruiser as much as my MVAE escort, actually like the Excelsior better.

It's a tough ship as is, and can really put out some good damage and I can only imagine with a TAC that it would shell out even more damage and still have the survivablity like mine does with being an ENG.

Excelsiors have become one of those foundation designs where they just keep upgrading and upgrading it because it's such a versatile ship that holds up through time. If I remember right there were several Excelsiors still whooping some dominion butt in DS9
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
05-30-2012, 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by voicesinthedark View Post
I've purchased the MVAE, Vulcan D'kyr, Thunderchild (for the console), Yellowstone, Excelsior and a few others, so I've got a little or a lot of something for everything. With that said I was strictly an Escort lover, UNTIL I got my Excelsior with the advanced Transwarp drive. I've actually been using it on my ENG character so I've got Eng overkill, but I've got to admit I never thought I'd like a cruiser as much as my MVAE escort, actually like the Excelsior better.

It's a tough ship as is, and can really put out some good damage and I can only imagine with a TAC that it would shell out even more damage and still have the survivablity like mine does with being an ENG.

Excelsiors have become one of those foundation designs where they just keep upgrading and upgrading it because it's such a versatile ship that holds up through time. If I remember right there were several Excelsiors still whooping some dominion butt in DS9
I appreciate that feedback, I still have my old Enterprise - B playmates ship here in this room, still love that ship design.

I think I am torn between the Excelsior and the Odyssey Operations Cruisers, as I can chevron separate for more maneuverability when needed, as well as plenty of space for the RCS consoles.

Galaxy-X, I would just want cannons on her, because without cannons what is the point, and with cannons just a very big lumbering escort.

So yeah, Excelsior vs Odyssey Operations Cruiser.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
05-30-2012, 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by potasssium
I appreciate that feedback, I still have my old Enterprise - B playmates ship here in this room, still love that ship design.

I think I am torn between the Excelsior and the Odyssey Operations Cruisers, as I can chevron separate for more maneuverability when needed, as well as plenty of space for the RCS consoles.

Galaxy-X, I would just want cannons on her, because without cannons what is the point, and with cannons just a very big lumbering escort.

So yeah, Excelsior vs Odyssey Operations Cruiser.
How much experience do you actually have with cruisers?

My advice is that you pick up the Assault Cruiser. The AC and Excel-R have a very strongly overlapping niche in that the AC is the "staple" end-game tactical cruiser, and the Excelsior-R is its primary competitor. This will also give you a taste for piloting cruisers in general. Plus, best of all, the AC is free, so you can decide from there if it fits your needs, or if you'd like to move on to the Excel-R and/or Odyssey.

One thing that you're going to be grossly disappointed with in the Odyssey, if you're brand new to cruisers, is the agility you'll be faced with. I consider saucer sep to be the Ody's most important gimmick ability, but owing to the long cool-down (longer with only one of the Ody set consoles), you're not going to be in saucer sep mode nearly as much as you'd like. The Assault Cruiser and Excel-R aren't escorts but they can move if they have to. The Ody in all its variants lives up to the nickname "space whale."

As an additional note, as I am one of the minority who believe cruisers need some level of agility, you will want to put absolutely no more than two RCS accelerators on the Excelsior or Assault Cruiser. In fact, putting more than one on is probably a waste, but make darn sure you've got the best you can get for that one or two slots (35% boost or better). If you're spec'd into impulse thrusters then you'll inherently add some to the speed. In my experience you can coax out an additional 1-2 deg/sec with a 35% RCS thruster console, coming in at around 12.3 deg/sec for my AC and around 14 deg/sec for my Excelsior. The math for RCS percentages is based on the base turn rate, as a note, and it may be questionable just how accurate it is, hence why you get so little. It's far from ideal, but IMO that little bump is just enough to be important - I think that somewhere between 10 and 12 degrees per second is some kind of critical psychological (for me) threshold and practicality threshold.

If you're using an Ody, don't bother with an RCS console. I'm one of the biggest RCS-on-cruisers supporters and I concluded long ago that an RCS booster for that beast is basically eating up an engineering slot for no good reason, although if you're willing to cram the saucer sep console into one of the science slots and feel like it you could stick two RCS consoles in there and fill the rest of the slots with Neutronium.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
05-30-2012, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_1999
How much experience do you actually have with cruisers?

My advice is that you pick up the Assault Cruiser. The AC and Excel-R have a very strongly overlapping niche in that the AC is the "staple" end-game tactical cruiser, and the Excelsior-R is its primary competitor. This will also give you a taste for piloting cruisers in general. Plus, best of all, the AC is free, so you can decide from there if it fits your needs, or if you'd like to move on to the Excel-R and/or Odyssey.

One thing that you're going to be grossly disappointed with in the Odyssey, if you're brand new to cruisers, is the agility you'll be faced with. I consider saucer sep to be the Ody's most important gimmick ability, but owing to the long cool-down (longer with only one of the Ody set consoles), you're not going to be in saucer sep mode nearly as much as you'd like. The Assault Cruiser and Excel-R aren't escorts but they can move if they have to. The Ody in all its variants lives up to the nickname "space whale."

As an additional note, as I am one of the minority who believe cruisers need some level of agility, you will want to put absolutely no more than two RCS accelerators on the Excelsior or Assault Cruiser. In fact, putting more than one on is probably a waste, but make darn sure you've got the best you can get for that one or two slots (35% boost or better). If you're spec'd into impulse thrusters then you'll inherently add some to the speed. In my experience you can coax out an additional 1-2 deg/sec with a 35% RCS thruster console, coming in at around 12.3 deg/sec for my AC and around 14 deg/sec for my Excelsior. The math for RCS percentages is based on the base turn rate, as a note, and it may be questionable just how accurate it is, hence why you get so little. It's far from ideal, but IMO that little bump is just enough to be important - I think that somewhere between 10 and 12 degrees per second is some kind of critical psychological (for me) threshold and practicality threshold.

If you're using an Ody, don't bother with an RCS console. I'm one of the biggest RCS-on-cruisers supporters and I concluded long ago that an RCS booster for that beast is basically eating up an engineering slot for no good reason, although if you're willing to cram the saucer sep console into one of the science slots and feel like it you could stick two RCS consoles in there and fill the rest of the slots with Neutronium.
I have a 35% RCS on my defiant I can borrow.

You make a very strong case for the Assault Cruiser, so I'll save myself the extra CP that the Excelsior costs.

I am spec'd into thrusters, so I guess I will give that a try, as my first foray into Cruisers, what with it being the most economic choice.

I'll save on getting the Excel for some much later date or sale.

edit: I keep forgetting the relationship between c-points and real money, have to make them go as far as I can.
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