Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Hi Gozer. I'm one of the many... I mean minority of players who PVP. Now I know not everyone is going to agree with me but I'd like to offer you my feedback as it may spark a discussion that allows for you to take a close look at PVP before you start just adding more things. I'll be speaking briefly on consoles, skills, and healing.


You can chain everything in this game. Some players desire a more complex system. But I think that system to a degree already exists in this game if it wasn't for a players ability to chain everything. Take the tactical captain for example. He can chain 2 of the same version of rapid fire, high yield torpedo, attack pattern "x".

Or how about chaining consoles like four Phaser relays. Or maybe two Neutronium alloys which both do +18 kinetic and energy resist, effectively allowing one escort to have +35 resist for both kinetic and energy damage. The same as a Monotanium Alloy console for kinetic damage resist or a Hull Plating console except that with two Neutroniums you get +35 for all energy types. Now if stacking two of one console gives you the stats of the other six whats the point of the other six? Or how about chaining two of the same emergency power so that its never off of cooldown. Whats the point in even naming them "Emergency" powers if you can chain two of them and use them whenever you want?

Now as far as skills go I'm of the opinion that being able to double chain everything takes away from slotting a skill as part of a build within which there is a purpose where one skill works together with other skills chosen by the player to compliment each other to a particular end. Such as stacking tac team with rapid fire, beam overload, and high yield torpedo to cripple a shield and do catastrophic damage to the hull in the blink of an eye. My point is that it is the synergy of skills in combination with the talent of the player against another player that makes PVP fun. Not the double chaining of the same skill for every skill in the game. That detracts from intelligent game play and instead encourages spamming the space bar.

Now I do realize some of you reading this will say that not every class has enough skills for a change like the one I am suggesting to be feasible. Namely the escort captain and the engineer. But if you take the time to check you'll see that there are more than enough powers for each class. The problem is that some of the skills are not practical at all as a result of the way they work currently. But if these skills were looked at and actually made effective there would be enough skills. And regardless of whether anything is changed about some of the skills we find useless in PVP like "auxiliary to battery", namely because it puts other emergency powers on cool down when it shouldn't; Gozer should still look to see which skills and/or weapons need IMMEDIATE attention and start there before tackling more complex problems like re-balancing PVP relative to the new doff system and ftp consoles from the c-store ships.

Finally healing. And this once again ties back into chaining. You can chain hazard emitters, transfer shield strength, hell two cruisers can even chain extend shields on the same target..... ANOTHER CRUISER!?
So currently in PVP even though some premades use polarize hull many simply chain two hazard emitters to buff their healing during combat and at the end of a match. Is it because polarize hull sucks? Nope! When everyone on your team is double chaining heals why should you worry about getting out of a tractor beam or gravity well? The only thing in Star Trek Online that I personally would agree with being chained are the team skills. Tac Team, Sci Team, and Engineering Team.

But to be honest... it would simply be better if you couldn't stack the teams and they were reduced from 30 seconds to 15 seconds for a single team. They are buffs and I believe that its okay. You cannot kill another player with a buff. But you can kill that player with the skills you buffed. The only reason players chain these skills is to cheat the global cool down. But who thought that in STO's game design it would actually be okay to give the player the freedom to cheat global cool downs? I'd love to know. Because I don't see how spamming the same skill relentlessly with no reason to use anything else since you can spam the one thing is intelligent as far as game design goes.

Not only that but if you ask many of the players who PVP day in and day out many will agree that there is TOO MUCH healing in the game as it currently stands. Tactical Team in its current form actually compounds this problem since it auto balances shields for the wearer and makes that target invulnerable to an escorts alpha strike, which it relies on from target to target. As far as healing itself is concerned I believe like in everything else the problem is in being able to chain WAY TOO MANY things in this game to make it more interesting coupled with the fact that some skills and weapons types simply suck or are not working as they would need to in order to be effective for a player to consider adding to his repertoire.

If you asked me what I would do to solve the healing problem I would tell you to make it so that two extend shields could not stack on the same target and cut out the chaining of the same heal on a single ship. i.e. (no 2 hazard emitters, extend shields, transfer shield strength, polarize, etc.)

The only reason players chain skills is to cheat the global cool down. If you can cheat a global cool down as opposed to maybe speccing into your skill tree to trait down by a few seconds the global cool down of one skill that shares a cool down with another skill ( such as tac team and engineering team) what the hell is the purpose of the global cool down system in STO? I guess what I'm saying is that players shouldn't be able to cheat the global cool down on anything except for team skills and that chaining the same skill detracts from intelligent game play because you don't have to think about slotting anything else since you can double stack multiple skills.

Also I'd just like to add that I don't have a problem with tac team auto balancing shields. In my opinion Tactical Team was added to ensure that an escort could stay facing on its target without being able to immediately be forced to turn away from the target as a result of a broadside. Its meant to allow an escort to stay facing the target just long enough to do significant or fatal damage. My issue is that 10 seconds is way too long. And there is a lot of talk about turning it into a separate skill But I still think that 10 seconds is too long especially when you consider that nothing was given to either Science Team or Engineering Team to make those skills just as awesome in SOME WAY which is evident in the fact that many non-tacitcal class players use it or "cant seem to live without it."

I don't claim to be an expert on game design or balance but this post is simply to share my opinion with the community and to open up feedback for Gozer to chew through whats really on my mind as well as all of yours.

-Captain Glitch-
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
06-01-2012, 10:46 PM
Hmm.. This is a very good thread this week. And for not much to talk about in specifics, you still gave us plenty to chew on.

Apart of me is wondering how your going to be making the leader boards for both Ground and Space. Even though a majority of the people that I know are "Spacers", I do wonder how it will turn out for both sides of the game.

Also wondering if your going to try and get some kind of Balance pass for both Space and Ground with PVP in mind.. Only because I know there are quite a few areas that feel even more "out of wack" then you'd expect. (For example: "P2W" ship consoles/ships)

Otherwise I look foward to seeing more information to provide better feedback.

I also think, as a suggestion for the Carriers, it might be cute for Carriers if their pets abilities/damages gave Carriers Points on a Leaderboard.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
06-01-2012, 11:54 PM
im in favor of leader board complexity like this, a little polish never hurts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34 FEEDBACK #2 for GOZER
06-01-2012, 11:56 PM
Hi again Gozer. I am going to re-post this in your weekly forum thread and that's just so you can access it more easily if you are mainly using that post as your reference for feedback. (So here's hoping I don't get an infraction) This post is intended to be my point of view on some of the plagues crippling what might otherwise be an amazing PVP system for Star Trek Online.

If you've read my original post of the same title I want to expand briefly on those thoughts but through a few different topics. Procs, bridge officer powers, the skill tree, and class integrity.

Many pvp'ers don't like the proc's in this game for one of two reasons. Either they work too well or they don't work well enough. Tetryon's, Polarons, Plasma are commonly laughed at. Disruptor is efficient to some degree. Antiproton is phenomenal if you are a Tactical Captain. But you should run a statistic. You will see that the number one weapon type chosen among pvp'ers is Phaser. The proc's of the other weapons do not compare to shutting a subsystem off in the heat of battle for 5 seconds. This is a great tragedy because there is a lot of potential in the other weapons. But its dwarfed by the fact that the Phaser proc IS BETTER than the other weapons types. At least this is the common perception of the average pvp'er.

Why shouldn't it be? What do you think would kill you first? Minus 25 power to all subsystems? Minus 220 all shield facings when each facing is over 12k? Plasma dot damage that can be cleared with a Hazard Emitters for 15 seconds every 30 seconds? Minus 10% all damage resistance when your shields and hull are at 100%? Or a completely disabled shield or shield facing, engine, auxiliary power, or weapons for 5 seconds?

Torpedoes are another topic of discussion. Quantum's and/or photons are the number one torpedo choice of pvp'ers. Transphasics and Plasma Torpedoes are laughed at by pvp'ers. I think the change to Tricobalt's personally was nice although they aren't used with any kind of regular practicality in PVP by many players. Chroniton's are and have always been decent. You trade high damage and recharge time for a 15 second slow when it procs. As far as torpedoes go most pvp'ers will tell you that Transphasic's and Plasma need some kind of attention given to them. ESPECIALLY Transphasic's.

Moving on to Bridge Officer Powers It'd be awesome if you could just answer a question for me. What is the intention of Cryptic's PVP design when it allows a player to use the same skill twice as if it were a different skill altogether just to lower the global cool down of that skill? I know I don't speak for everyone but I think a lot of players would love to know the original intention behind this design choice as its not something I've seen in other games. Many people will complain that if you don't allow us to double stack things there will not be enough skills to put on your ship. I don't believe this is true. You might not like your choices but there ARE choices for you to be able to put in the slots players are currently doubling up with the same power. But that's besides the point anyway. The point is why are we allowed to use the same power twice as if it were a different skill for some powers but not all? For example why can't we lower the global cool down when using two Team Skills for example? And what makes Team Skills different from the powers we can double stack such as Hazard Emitters or Transfer Shield Strength?

Another big question I think a lot of us are wondering is why after 6 seasons Starship Subsystem Repair still has no relevance to PVE or PVP? There simply is NO reason to spec into that skill. It makes no sense. And then there is the Cloaking Skill. From what I understand it actually does have relevance when specced for PVE as when you are specced into it you can uncloak closer within proximity of NPC's. Why wouldn't that include approaching other players? The skill seems to have no relevance in PVP and if you are unaware you may wish to look into it.

Also something isn't right about Auxiliary to Battery. It says its apart of the Auxiliary Power system which is the same system as Auxiliary to Inertial Dampeners and Auxiliary to the Structural Integrity Field. So why is it putting Emergency Powers on cool down when all of the Emergency Power skills are apart of the Batteries system? This tells me one of two things. Either Auxiliary to Battery is labeled under the wrong system or it is putting Emergency Powers on cool down when it should not be if in fact it is supposed to be apart of the Auxiliary Power System. Again this is another nugget for you to look into.

Finally class integrity. I'm not going to elaborate on this instead I'm going to link another post by Sivar, an awesome and upstanding member of the PVP community: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=272446

His post is just as lengthy as mine. But it is a solid read that you will definitely want to look at. And that's my feedback. For now.

-Captain Glitch-
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
06-02-2012, 12:10 AM
Good update big guy. Always awesome having something to look forward to
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
06-02-2012, 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.S.S.Bloodmage
This is a great tragedy because there is a lot of potential in the other weapons. But its dwarfed by the fact that the Phaser proc IS BETTER than the other weapons types. At least this is the common perception of the average pvp'er.
hmm yes phasers, bad news .

Quote:
Originally Posted by U.S.S.Bloodmage
Another big question I think a lot of us are wondering is why after 6 seasons Starship Subsystem Repair still has no relevance to PVE or PVP? There simply is NO reason to spec into that skill. It makes no sense.
if only there was somethings bad news that shuts down subsystems, so this skill could be useful!

VM+phasers makes this skill plenty valuable, well it did for a week or so. then the alive crew became a multiplier for subsystem repair effectiveness.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
06-02-2012, 02:28 AM
Rewards for Participation sounds good.
The Foundry needs something like this also very much (a 3 hour mission should be a lot more rewarding than a 3 Second *animation test* on that Console).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
06-02-2012, 02:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
Please keep in mind many forms of CC, buffs, and debuffs are very effective, but don't translate into numbers. [...]
yes, while this sounds like very good news on my first read. I m a little afraid that PvP is going to be another bring an Tac/Escort or stay home kind of thing, like the FA(since...ever) and the STFs (even more so since Gozer's revamp).

You started with a harsh truth, and while I m very happy to read a long term request being in discussion for tribble, let me return the favor. There is not a single piece of content in which DPS and burst does not reign supreme in STO. This cannot be due to the lack of new tech, its the result of poor design choices. But for the tracking and leaderboards to achieve what we all have been hoping for, it needs to be the first time STO breaks this design pattern...

The uncomfortable truth is, you Gozer need to break that pattern, after you failed to break it in the STF revamp. Good Luck, i really hope you can pull it off.

If this is done right, it smells of epic win for STO pvp, i doubt it ll bring in new players, but i ll be great for vets, and lay a foundation for future pvp development. Most likely it ll be another nerf to sci ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
06-02-2012, 02:50 AM
The biggest problem with participation based system and leader boards / rankings may be that people start to optimize certain "stats", like, say, DPS and lose sight of the main goal - winning the match (and having fun in the process). I think having statistics on such stats can be very useful, and they may be justifiably used to determine match rewards. But for rankings, I would still focus on wins and losses.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
06-02-2012, 03:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The biggest problem with participation based system and leader boards / rankings may be that people start to optimize certain "stats", like, say, DPS and lose sight of the main goal - winning the match (and having fun in the process). I think having statistics on such stats can be very useful, and they may be justifiably used to determine match rewards. But for rankings, I would still focus on wins and losses.
there is not an iota of doubt in me that, whatever stats are displayed at the end of the match which determine your rewards is what people will optimize their builds for. Hence my concerns, and we haven't even talked about the implications of P2W. Gozer hasn't said how much exactly stuff scales, but this could very well be the end of all former endgame ships (45). But I m not the type for apocalyptic scenarios.

Get it right, and it ll be grea; do it half baked from the perspective of an escort pilot and it spells even more fail.
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