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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
06-11-2012, 08:07 AM
You're assuming, of course, that Janeway didn't just alter the logs and threaten the crew into silence. I wouldn't put it past her. Janeway's more supervillain than protagonist.

You should probably watch this
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
06-11-2012, 08:14 AM
Starfleet captains are expected to make life and death choices without being paralyzed by indecision. It's the point of the Kobayashi Maru test - no truly acceptable option (risk war, loose your ship, sacrifice civilians) but the situation requires you to choose one of them anyway. Indecision is the real failure.

She had to make a decision - one crewmember versus two with none not an option, accidental being versus natural beings (remembering the Federation's violent hangups when it comes to other technologically induced beings like clones and augments, and their treatment of androids and holograms as equipment rather than personnel).

Tuvok and Neelix could be recovered, meaning their temporary nonexistence was irrelevant and their needs still relevant. The decision to keep Tuvix was the decision to leave them behind. A decision she would have to justify.

Neither decision ends with Janeway facing court martial, much less prison, because any justification for one decision being wrong leaves both decisions being wrong. These are the decisions captains are created to make. You don't go around ending the career of every captain who loses a crewmember under theoretically preventable circumstances, much less ones who lose them under circumstances where every decision means at least one person lost.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
06-11-2012, 08:15 AM
i would have brought tuvok and neelix back as well.

although i would have phasered neelix as he appeared back on the transporter pad but thats a different story.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
06-11-2012, 08:15 AM
I get around the whole problem by pretending that stupid episode didn't happen. Just like Threshold didn't happen. No Warp 10 engine. No hyper-evolving into salamanders. No little salamander babies. And no dumb Tuvok/Neelix hybrid being. Never happened. Does not compute. Please insert twenty-five more cents to continue your call.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
06-11-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kant_Lavar
I get around the whole problem by pretending that stupid episode didn't happen. Just like Threshold didn't happen. No Warp 10 engine. No hyper-evolving into salamanders. No little salamander babies. And no dumb Tuvok/Neelix hybrid being. Never happened. Does not compute. Please insert twenty-five more cents to continue your call.
I used to pretend that stupid episodes of Voyager didn't happen. But that just left 6 episodes. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
06-11-2012, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kant_Lavar
I get around the whole problem by pretending that stupid episode didn't happen. Just like Threshold didn't happen. No Warp 10 engine. No hyper-evolving into salamanders. No little salamander babies. And no dumb Tuvok/Neelix hybrid being. Never happened. Does not compute. Please insert twenty-five more cents to continue your call.
I agree, Janeway's morals definitely did not agree with my own. They would've been better off keeping the salamanders on board, at the very least. I imagine there would've been some kind of investigation after she returned. But.... she did bring all that advanced tech and starcharts with her. In the end, doing good for the war machine does good for the career.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
06-11-2012, 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosolidshoe View Post
Indeed, that was my reasoning. In addition, Janeway even explicitly states at one point that, in her mind, both Neelix and Tuvok were the sort of men who would gladly sacrifice themselves to save the life of another; now, she was using that in an attempt to shame Tuvix, but to my mind it only reinforces the wrongness of her actions; if they would be willing to give up their lives to save another, then it surely follows that they would not wish an innocent's life to be sacrificed in order that they may live.

As to the idea that Tuvix was not "natural", that doesn't hold up; for a start, whether he was natural or otherwise is irrelevant, he existed. The moment he materialised on that pad he was a sentient individual with a distinct personality, and at that point his life became every bit as valid as anyone else's. In addition, Janeway and other captains, Picard being one, have gone to bat on behalf of synthetic life forms on several occasions; Data, the Doctor, hell, even Exocomps. If Janeway can acknowledge the simple rational truth that a simulation as complex as the thing it simulates is essentially indistinguishable in an empirical sense, and thus the Doctor, simulation or no, is a sentient being, then there's no defense for her in the "nature" argument I fear.

As to purging records, that's the only way to explain away the lack of repercussions, but you would think Tuvok at least would have something to say on the subject.
Aahh, you see this is the dilemma that we face, i liked your argument involving Mr Data, exocomps, the holographic doctor and the like . . even those little nanites were granted sentient status.

If iím honest, i wouldnít want to get rid of Tuvix, and i did feel bad when he was taken away at the end of the episode . . as you say . . Picard may have given Tuvix the choice if he wanted to stay how he was or return to Tuvok & Nelix. Perhaps i would have asked him the question, but i would also consider that if it wasnít for transported tech he wouldnít be there at all, and i would have to consider the needs of the lost two crew members. So iíve looked into the regulations to help.

General Order 1: "No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society."

Would merging 2 species with technology violate this regulation accident or not?

Starfleet Order 2: Starfleet regulation against the taking of intelligent life.

Perhaps this regulation rests your case, since even if Tuvix was an accident . . as captain i would have been forbidden to take his life since heís quite obviously an intelligent life form. I think iíve just sent myself to jail . . lol.

But i think i still would have brought both crew members back ??
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
06-11-2012, 08:30 AM
you all forget Janeway's character varied SO MUCH thanks to many different interpretions thanks to the writers... but in the story itself, you could write that off as mental disease of bi-polar something

i ignore that and just go with it. and just because something is medicore (ie what many of you think most Voyager episodes are) doesn't mean it's not worth watching. in fact, personally i get a kick out of the medicore just as much as the best
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
06-11-2012, 08:31 AM
I just re-watched it, it wasn't as flippant a decision as people seem to think.
Friends and loved ones wanted Tuvok and Neelix back and Janeway certainly didn't do it without remorse. I think the only reason the Doctor protested was because he seemed like he was still very much an automaton at that point and bound to his ethical subroutines.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
06-11-2012, 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrobbiec
I think the only reason the Doctor protested was because he seemed like he was still very much an automaton at that point and bound to his ethical subroutines.
But doesn't that point to the fact Janeway was wrong? Take the emotion out of it and an ethical program says this is wrong. Being a captain doesn't mean letting your emotions or the emotions of everyone else influence your decisions. You have to chose what is right and wrong without emotion.

Kes misses Neelix. Well, big whoop! I'm sure The Sisko misses Jennifer. But Neelix and Tuvox were dead.

The Doctor should have just written up their death certificates.
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