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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
06-11-2012, 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commadore_Bob
Kes misses Neelix. Well, big whoop! I'm sure Sisko misses Jennifer. But Neelix and Tuvox were dead.
Well Sisko had the Dax symbiont taken out of that guy and put back in Jadzia. He could've accepted that Dax had moved on.

They weren't technically dead or else they couldn't have been brought back. More like some kind of, I don't know, suspended consciousness?
Ethics aren't everything, they were people not machines.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
06-11-2012, 09:40 AM
I tend to think of it in regards to under what circumstances is it justified to order a crewman to his death. The only one I know of is when the safety of the ship is at stake. Beyond that point, we get dangerously into the realm of playing god. Up until the point, the decision belonged to Tuvix. He had to decide weather he was willing to sacrifice himself, to save two fellow crewmen.

To put it another way, if Riker and Geordi both needed a transplant and Worf could offer it but it would kill him in the process, would it be right for Picard to order him to do it?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
06-11-2012, 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greendragoon View Post
To put it another way, if Riker and Geordi both needed a transplant and Worf could offer it but it would kill him in the process, would it be right for Picard to order him to do it?
I'd say that's different, that's more directly killing as opposed to restoring an accident.

Just a thought Tuvix claimed Tuvok and Neelix lived on through him (his justification for staying alive) does Tuvix not live on through them?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
06-11-2012, 09:49 AM
In not undoing Tuvix, you are condemning to death Neelix and Tuvok, both of whom are savable.

The prime directive does not apply, as Tuvix is a Federation citizen, and indeed technically two Federation citizens.

How is it different from separating Siamese twins? They may have separate personalities but they often share body parts.

And what about rejoining Kirk in 'the Enemy Within? A century later, a second Riker stays independent and gets his own star fleet career in 'Second Chances.' Should the two Kirks have been treated for their respective personality issues and both survived? (Shatner might have liked the extra paycheque :p )

And how about anyone in RL with multiple personality disorder? Should this be treated as if each personality has an independent legal existence?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
06-11-2012, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
And what about rejoining Kirk in 'the Enemy Within? A century later, a second Riker stays independent and gets his own star fleet career in 'Second Chances.' Should the two Kirks have been treated for their respective personality issues and both survived? (Shatner might have liked the extra paycheque :p )
The difference here is that in Kirks case the split was actually killing both versions . . since the bad couldn't servive without the good half and visa versa, since vital signs were split aswell and got weaker over time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
06-11-2012, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosolidshoe View Post
Am I the only one who's a bit bothered by the fact that the Federation seems perfectly happy handing out an Admiral's pips to an unrepentant murderer? That the "Tuvix incident" wasn't even mentioned by Starfleet after the Pathfinder programme established two-way comms? I mean, Author Author was a good episode, but for my money the first thing going on trial should have been Janeway.

I did try, really, as I quite like Voyager as a series and even Janeway has her moments, but I can't find the angle that makes the actions taken by the senior staff and Janeway in particular even remotely justifiable. If two crewmen died, then Q popped in for a visit and told Janeway that he'd bring them back to life if she kill a random stranger, I think she'd be rightly condemned for even considering such a proposition never mind acting on it, yet that's essentially what she did in this episode. And everyone bar the Doctor just seems to go along with it

I'm interested to see if anyone can show me a perspective on this ep I hadn't considered.
While I don't think that Janeway deserved to be an Admiral over people like Picard, I certainly don't think that you can hold that incident against her.

Yes it was not a moral thing to end one life, but it would be less moral to deny the existence of the two separate individuals that did not agree to have their existence combined to create said person.

In the end, while difficult, it was the correct choice ethically as Tuvix was not only an accident, but his existence denied the existences of the two people who created them.

Two people were gone, replaced by one accident who had their memories or a melding of their personalities, but he was not them and to allow his continued existence would have been akin to killing the two it took to create him.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
06-11-2012, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reave View Post
. They were effectively dead, and dead men have no needs.
Tell that to Spock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reave View Post
Besides, even if NotMotNotF did fit, that rarely is enough justification to do anything. You're effective arguing Daugherty's case for relocating the Ba'ku. You're volunteering the guy who survives a shuttlecrash unscathed to give up his two kidneys, heart and liver to save the lives of four fellow passengers who were not so lucky, at the paltry cost of his one life, with platitudes like "not supposed to"...
.

I would say they are different ethical situations. The Baku could have been handled far easier if they just went along and talked to them. Ask them if they would be willing to relocate, and offer Starfleet aid to do so.

And the shuttlecraft guy..... you could certainly ask him. But force him? No, I would not force him. Besides, this is Star Trek. They have fake hearts and organs all over the shop.


As I said, it's been a while since I saw Tuvix, so the exact details escape me. But don't think just because I am saying the needs of the few and he was not part of the 'natural balance of the universe', please don't take that to mean they are the decisions I would do. I am simply offering alternative viewpoints, playing Devil's advocate, as the OP asked, to justify Janeway's decision.


What I would have done with Tuvix: If he didn't want to go through the procedure, and keeping him mingled would not pose any hazardous risk of life to him, then I would respect his right as a living sentient being. Kes can go cry to the Doctor. Janeway seemed to have a somewhat cavlier viewpoint about her crew. If they were part of her bridge crew/'friends', then she would break whatever rules and ethics to get them. If they were her doffs, she wouldn't.


I mean, if it was Sudor and the Vulcan engineer who tried to Ponn Farr B'lanna, would Janeway have been so determined to go through with it?

Kirk may have lost Redshirts every week, but at least we saw real care and emotion for each man he lost. Janeway, I don't think we ever did. Except for Carrey, right at the end. But again, part of the 'friends' list.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
06-11-2012, 09:57 AM
Couple things:

The way I looked into it was like treating a medical condition.

The accident created one individual, at the "reversible" cost of two original.

Janeway had to make a decision on behalf of the other two that could not speak for themselves. As she pointed out, "I believe that they would want to live."

Suppose someone developed a completely new personality, in multiple personality disorder. Do you treat that individual, causing the demise of the second persona in favor of the original, or do you treat the second persona as an individual who has just as much as a right to survive as the original?

What about a sentient parasite then ?, perhaps not so quite unlike like Stargate's Goa'uld ? (perhaps that example wasn't the best as the writers took great pains in making the Goa'uld so nonredeemable as to avoid this argument)
But would this example be any different if the parasites were pleasant, but still took over the host without permission?
What about if the Trill did not consent to the symbiots and were "farmed" as hosts?
Would that be okay then as one could argue that the symbiots have a right to survive and were given the natural ability by nature to assert themselves and incorporate into the host's personality?

Course Star Trek took the easy way out and made the Symbiots helpless and the Trill agreeable to the arrangement. But what would happen if the parasitic Symbiots acted as most parasites due in nature and just did it without the host's permission?

Lastly, lets not forget that Janeway had to do what was best for the ship and their chances of survival under their unique circumstances of being stranded in the delta quadrant.
I believe that Tuvox would have been pretty damned indispensable as her chief of security. Neelix, I'm not so sure of.

Captains have to sometime send crew on missions they know have a high mortality rate, especially if it is for a greater purpose, or for the survival of the ship, (rest of their butts). They make life or death decisions all the time on behalf of the individuals on board their ship.

I would assume that Star Fleet would look at it this way.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
06-11-2012, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivar View Post
In the end, while difficult, it was the correct choice ethically as Tuvix was not only an accident, but his existence denied the existences of the two people who created them.
Thats where i'm coming from too :-). Well said sir.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
06-11-2012, 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
In not undoing Tuvix, you are condemning to death Neelix and Tuvok, both of whom are savable.

The prime directive does not apply, as Tuvix is a Federation citizen, and indeed technically two Federation citizens.

How is it different from separating Siamese twins? They may have separate personalities but they often share body parts.

And what about rejoining Kirk in 'the Enemy Within? A century later, a second Riker stays independent and gets his own star fleet career in 'Second Chances.' Should the two Kirks have been treated for their respective personality issues and both survived? (Shatner might have liked the extra paycheque :p )

And how about anyone in RL with multiple personality disorder? Should this be treated as if each personality has an independent legal existence?
I don't think you can compare this with any modern medical condition because of the technobabble way Tuvix came into being. And to be honest, at that point I don't care. What we have is a conscious person with the ability to make his own decisions. I don't care how he came into being, Janeway killed him.

People keep saying Janeway needed both Tuvok and Neelix, but her own log disputes that:
Quote:
"The crew seems to be growing accustomed to his presence, and he's proving to be a very able tactical officer who isn't afraid to express his opinions. While he's forging relationships with many of the officers, he seems to be keeping a respectful distance from Kes, allowing her to adjust to the circumstances on her own terms. As for my relationship with Tuvix, I've found him to be an able adviser, who skillfully uses humor to make his points. And although I feel a bit guilty saying it, his cooking is better than Neelix's. My taste buds are definitely happy to have him around. "
And what if it would have taken more than 14 days to find the "cure"? If it had taken two years, would it have still been moral to kill him?
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