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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
06-11-2012, 05:31 PM
Edit: I spent too long typing this. It seems sosolidshoe beat me to most of it.

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Originally Posted by Kimmera
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reave
Unfortunately, following this particular kind of logic in one direction, we open up the possibility of justifying the harvesting of stemcells from newly born, living babies, being effectively blank slates, to treat conditions afflicting their fully actualized parents.
But the stem cells themselves are not independent individuals being saved. The analogy does not fit.
The analogy fits where it matters. One life, regarded as inconsequential for not having existed long enough to be considered 'a person', is extinguished to save two others. It was meant to argue the notion that you could make that distinction at all.

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Originally Posted by Kimmera
If their minds were not present, how were their personalities and memories part of Tuvix? If consciousness is a requirement for being trapped, does that mean anyone in a coma is non-existant? And what about someone being mentally controlled? If their consciousness is suppressed by the control does that mean the entity controlling them legally becomes... them?

...

Again, if someone is in a coma, should they simply be tossed away for dead on the basis they have no consciousness? They knew they could separate Tuvix into the original component individuals, so they knew the individuals were in there in some manner.
In some manner, exactly. As potential. All the bits and pieces are there needed to bring them into existence, but that does not mean they exist right now.

Mind, consciousness, personality, these things are not to be confused with memories. Memory and mind are very different things. Memories shape the mind, they are crucial to the mind's decision making processes, but they are not part of it. They're physically recorded in the brain. A person afflicted with amnesia or brain damage does not cease to have a mind or a personality; it will have merely changed, as much of the information it used to rely on to determine its responses is no longer available.

When you're talking about mental control, you're implying an outside or implanted influence. You're talking about an addition, not a change. And a suppressed consciousness is not the same thing as a missing consciousness or an altered consciousness.

Someone who is in a coma is someone who is a coma, not someone who is trapped. There's different kinds of comas, of course. Some people claim to have been conscious throughout their comas, merely unable to react. Those would count as trapped. Those that are unconscious, are unconscious. Being unconscious doesn't mean the potential for consciousness is gone. If it is, then usually is where we pull the plug. As long as it's there, though, as long as there's a chance for recovery, there's no reason to toss anyone out, as you say.

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Originally Posted by Kimmera
Again, if there was an outside entity that took over control, if the new personality had nothing to do with either of the originals, would you feel the same?
No. But there's a key difference here. You're describing an outside force, or a parasite. Whether it's malicious or not, whether it's reasoned or not, there is intent here. The key difference to Tuvix is that Tuvix is not an outside force imposing itself on Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix IS Tuvok and Neelix.

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Originally Posted by Kimmera
If it is not reversed, though, should Janeway and Star Fleet be charged with manslaughter for the deaths of Tuvok and Neelix?
No. Accidents happen. That's all it was. I'm sure there's tons of waivers you have to sign before you're even allowed to serve on a tiny pressure vessel inside a massive vacuum, dodging Klingon disruptors, spatial anomalies and redshirt eating plants every other day. Starfleet might adjust some safety regulations in response, but that I'd expect would be the end of it.

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Originally Posted by Kimmera
So as long as the organs were placed in a recipient who had no knowledge of or culpability in the harvesting, everything would be fine and they should live while two others die?
Two wrongs don't make a right. In Tuvix' case, the harm was already done. Tuvok and Neelix weren't going to die/disappear, they already had.



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Originally Posted by Kimmera
This was two people combine into one. What if it was ten? Or more? How many lives is one new life worth? If you argue that the two who gave their lives did not suffer in doing so, how is the fact that Tuvix wouldn't suffer during the reversal process not be relevant?
I didn't argue that they didn't suffer in the process, though I imagine the nature of transporters such that indeed would've been the case. What I argue is that which does not exist cannot suffer. As of Tuvix, neither Tuvok nor Neelix exist anymore, as anything more than 'ingredients' in Tuvix.

Me, I have determined the value of a single human life. For the sake of absolutist arguments, anyway, which I personally don't believe in. It's 0. Attribute it any other value, and you open the door to bad arithmatic, in every possible sense.

Let's say a colony is wiped out by some kind of weird solar flare, and all the people there are burnt to cinders, let's say a thousand, but afterward there's one non-corporeal being with the memories of most if not all of them there. Along comes Joe Starfleet who's sweetheart lived in said colony, riding the whaaaambulance in at warp 9. And let's say he can figure out a way to restore all those lives, lost to an accident, at the cost of this new, unique (even if it is a composite) lifeform, if that lifeform does not want him to?

I just don't think so. It could be a million people. It could be a homeworld. It doesn't change anything. There's already gone, and then there's still here. I'm pretty sure, in fact, at that scale the prime directive would back me up.

Look at it this way, the Splitters (yay, I nicknamed you!) seem to love to argue that somehow Tuvok and Neelix were still in there, still had needs or wishes. But if Tuvix uses every part of Neelix and Tuvok in his decision making, couldn't that mean that his refusal is also their refusal?


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Originally Posted by Kimmera
It is meant to be a tough, thought provoking dilemma. It is interested that in the case of the two Rikers, they both were allowed to survive. Post 911 I wonder how they would have handled it.... there are a lot more concerns with identity and citizenship now than there were then. They could have done an entire second show trying to sort out how to get their system to accept someone who was literally just born yesterday.. as an adult, not to mention as a ranked Star Fleet officer with no independant testing or training....
Never thought of it like that, and I suppose that's because I don't see it that way. Not merging the two Rikers back together, against the will of one of them, seems like a no-brainer to me. While yes, Thomas Riker's doppleganger status came back to bite starfleet in the ***, you can't put a person's life second to your own paranoia.

And though clearly they didn't use any of them, there were other options. Federation medicine can alter people to pass for entirely different species, going beyond surface detail even. It shouldn't have been that hard for them to tell Thomas he needed to have his fingerprints altered, and some of his introns (junk DNA) rearranged. I think if we let him choose between the solution you described and mine, any objections and emotional attachments to his fingerprints he might've had would've melt away.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52 Tuvix murdered?
06-11-2012, 06:48 PM
Tuvix was both Neelix and Tuvok. She didn't murder anyone. She just returned them to their original state.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
06-11-2012, 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reave View Post
Edit: I spent too long typing this. It seems sosolidshoe beat me to most of it.

The analogy fits where it matters. One life, regarded as inconsequential for not having existed long enough to be considered 'a person', is extinguished to save two others. It was meant to argue the notion that you could make that distinction at all.
But the one life is not the direct combination of the other two, nor likely the only source of stem cells.

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In some manner, exactly. As potential. All the bits and pieces are there needed to bring them into existence, but that does not mean they exist right now.

Mind, consciousness, personality, these things are not to be confused with memories. Memory and mind are very different things. Memories shape the mind, they are crucial to the mind's decision making processes, but they are not part of it. They're physically recorded in the brain. A person afflicted with amnesia or brain damage does not cease to have a mind or a personality; it will have merely changed, as much of the information it used to rely on to determine its responses is no longer available.
The question is the degree to which the mind or personality is different. The combination is, physiologically and psychologically the combination of the original two beings. The parts are, by definition, all there.

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When you're talking about mental control, you're implying an outside or implanted influence. You're talking about an addition, not a change. And a suppressed consciousness is not the same thing as a missing consciousness or an altered consciousness.
And yet they have the personality of the controller. The controlled could be suppressed to the point of non-detect-ability. There are plenty of canon examples of control where the victim retains no memory of the control, Rejak being probably the most noteworthy from Wolf in the Fold. Since the original personality is 'gone' why does the manner that was accomplished matter? The argument seems to be that they should be able to continue to possess the victim as long as they wish, being now a 'new life form' with the memories of both possessed and controller.

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Someone who is in a coma is someone who is a coma, not someone who is trapped. There's different kinds of comas, of course. Some people claim to have been conscious throughout their comas, merely unable to react. Those would count as trapped. Those that are unconscious, are unconscious. Being unconscious doesn't mean the potential for consciousness is gone. If it is, then usually is where we pull the plug. As long as it's there, though, as long as there's a chance for recovery, there's no reason to toss anyone out, as you say.
But the potential for consciousness is still there with Tuvix. Separate the entities and the consciousness returns.

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No. But there's a key difference here. You're describing an outside force, or a parasite. Whether it's malicious or not, whether it's reasoned or not, there is intent here. The key difference to Tuvix is that Tuvix is not an outside force imposing itself on Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix IS Tuvok and Neelix.
Academic. The combination fits your definition of 'new entity' just as much as Tuvix. You are making a distinction based on mechanism of combination. In this case, the outside force was the transporter. Using the tech in the correct manner again reverses the process.

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No. Accidents happen. That's all it was. I'm sure there's tons of waivers you have to sign before you're even allowed to serve on a tiny pressure vessel inside a massive vacuum, dodging Klingon disruptors, spatial anomalies and redshirt eating plants every other day. Starfleet might adjust some safety regulations in response, but that I'd expect would be the end of it.
I think you need to read up on the definition of Criminal Negligence.

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Two wrongs don't make a right. In Tuvix' case, the harm was already done. Tuvok and Neelix weren't going to die/disappear, they already had.
No more than if they were simply trapped in the transporter buffer. They are merely 'mostly dead.'

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I didn't argue that they didn't suffer in the process, though I imagine the nature of transporters such that indeed would've been the case. What I argue is that which does not exist cannot suffer. As of Tuvix, neither Tuvok nor Neelix exist anymore, as anything more than 'ingredients' in Tuvix.
Since the ingredients still exist and are separable, they still exist.

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Me, I have determined the value of a single human life. For the sake of absolutist arguments, anyway, which I personally don't believe in. It's 0. Attribute it any other value, and you open the door to bad arithmatic, in every possible sense.

Let's say a colony is wiped out by some kind of weird solar flare, and all the people there are burnt to cinders, let's say a thousand, but afterward there's one non-corporeal being with the memories of most if not all of them there. Along comes Joe Starfleet who's sweetheart lived in said colony, riding the whaaaambulance in at warp 9. And let's say he can figure out a way to restore all those lives, lost to an accident, at the cost of this new, unique (even if it is a composite) lifeform, if that lifeform does not want him to?
Something similar already happened involving the transporter buffer of DS9. They were sorted out and tossed into holograms until their bodies could be reconstituted. Since photonic life forms have been deemed living, was it murder to restore them to conventional bodies? Should they have been left in the pattern buffer in the first place?

Again you there is that prejudicial language though, with the 'whaaaaaambulance.' Is your case that weak that you feel the need for such comments?

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I just don't think so. It could be a million people. It could be a homeworld. It doesn't change anything. There's already gone, and then there's still here. I'm pretty sure, in fact, at that scale the prime directive would back me up.
The prime directive applies to the internal affairs of a species as a whole, and is limited when the welfare of the Federation is at stake (or they would never be able to defend themselves or trade with anyone). It also applies primarily to less developed civilizations. it is hard to argue Tuvix was less developed.

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Look at it this way, the Splitters (yay, I nicknamed you!) seem to love to argue that somehow Tuvok and Neelix were still in there, still had needs or wishes. But if Tuvix uses every part of Neelix and Tuvok in his decision making, couldn't that mean that his refusal is also their refusal?
Not if they were both influencing the other. In fact, arguably, it proves the original two would have similar survival instincts.

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Never thought of it like that, and I suppose that's because I don't see it that way. Not merging the two Rikers back together, against the will of one of them, seems like a no-brainer to me. While yes, Thomas Riker's doppleganger status came back to bite starfleet in the ***, you can't put a person's life second to your own paranoia.
It gave Frakes an extra guest appearance too

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And though clearly they didn't use any of them, there were other options. Federation medicine can alter people to pass for entirely different species, going beyond surface detail even. It shouldn't have been that hard for them to tell Thomas he needed to have his fingerprints altered, and some of his introns (junk DNA) rearranged. I think if we let him choose between the solution you described and mine, any objections and emotional attachments to his fingerprints he might've had would've melt away.
His personality problems derived from him being a second William T Ryker. He was unwilling to accept himself as someone else. It seems unlikely he would have accepted any level of identity change. I didn't actually propose a solution in his case since the original was completely intact. More I was pointing out the identity issues.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
06-11-2012, 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
But the third party wouldn't be alive at all if not for the organ theft. What you are saying is that organ theft should be a valid way to save a third party.
No, what I am arguing is that as the recipient in your example is guilty of no wrongdoing, had no intent to do any wrongdoing, and had no part in the initial immoral action, punishing that individual for the immoral action of another individual is wrong. That statement simply isn't disputable by any rational standard.


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So if someone takes a blow to the head, the should legally become a different person and any damage should not be repaired? It should be treated as if they are a completely new person? That the combined personality was different doesn't change the fact the original components were still present. The same personality combination could be effected by mind meld without loss of either individual.
You're sinking your own arguments here. If an individual suffers brain damage which results in a shift in personality, but that person is still determined to be "of sound mind" in a legal context, ie, they are capable of making a rational choice as well as anyone else, then they would be allowed to refuse treatment to restore their original personality. So, yes, not only should that be the case, it already is the case.

Once again, personality is a function of BOTH memory AND neurology. The neurological structure of Tuvix's brain was unique and distinct from both Tuvok and Neelix, and as such his personality was unique even if all your other points were taken for granted. A mind meld cannot physically blend the neural substrate of the individuals participating in it, it allows a sharing of memory and experience, but the two distinct personalities remain throughout the whole experienced. This isn't something you can argue against either, not four episodes later in "Flashbacks", we see the Doctor monitoring Janeway and Tuvok while they participate in a mindmeld, and it is explicitly stated that he is monitoring two distinct sets of brainwave patterns throughout.



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So... comatose patients are not unconscious? You are making up new definitions of consciousness now. Autonomous responses are by definition not conscious ones. One thing we don't have is an after report. We don't know if the two separated individuals retained memory of the joining. Since they remembered everything (from both lives) up to the joining, it is plausible to conclude they remembered everything during too.
No, actually, you are mixing definitions as you see fit. "Conscious" and "Unconscious" when used in the context of describing whether a being is a sentient, cognizant, unique individual do NOT mean the same as when they are used to describe whether a person is currently asleep or awake. I can be a "conscious entity" who is currently "unconscious", and there is no contradiction implied.

As to whether or not they remembered the experience, it's completely besides the point. Once again, personality is a function of both memory AND neurology, the fact that Tuvix possessed the memories of both Neelix and Tuvok does not mean he was two distinct individuals in one body, and the fact that Neelix and Tuvok may have retained memories of the experiences of Tuvix does NOT mean that the distinct, unique, individual that was "Tuvix" has not ceased to exist.


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Why is intent relevant? Even if Tuvix deliberately had invoked the combination somehow (which would have been impossible of course in that Tuvix did not exist as a combination prior), how would he not have still been an independant new life form by your arguments? In such case Tuvix might have been guilty of murder, but since the penalty for murder is imprisonment rather than death, it wouldn't change your conclusions.
Wait, hold up chief. You attempted to equate one individual forcibly taking control of another individual with the Tuvix situation. I point out that this is a spurious comparison as Tuvix had no intent to do anything as he didn't exist prior to the accident, and thus cannot be guilty of forcing anything on anyone. At no point did I recant my argument that he is a distinct, unique, individual life form, merely that without intent, he cannot be compared to someone who deliberately usurps another's consciousness.



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So the lives of the many really do mean nothing compared to the existence of the one, even if the one was a direct result of the losses of the many.... ? Should the two Kirks have been required to die rather than surrender their new individuality? The aggressive one certainly didn't want to recombine as I recall....
Whether or not Tuvix is a result of the destruction of the many is not at issue, the issue is whether or not it is moral, ethical, just to punish the one when he had no involvement or responsibility whatsoever in the scenario which led to his creation. The answer to that, by the way, is "no, it isn't ethical".

As to the two Kirks, I've seen TOS in years so my memory is fuzzy; was any effort made to determine if they were sane and capable of rational decision making? If they were, then forcibly recombining them against their wishes, even if that would result in their deaths, would be absolutely wrong. Either sane individuals have a right to self determination or they don't, you can't pick and choose individual scenarios where it's suddenly A-OK to take that right away from them.


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But neither Tuvok nor Neelix had a say in their fate. How would they have chosen? And why doesn't that matter to you, given that they were separable?
If Janeway herself is anything to go by, according to her they would be appalled at the idea of a life being taken to save their own. Further, how they -would- have chosen is, frankly, irrelevant - they no longer existed. They were gone, dead, kaput. Tuvix was not.


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You are creating a circular argument by using the term murder to argue that it would be murder. You also are defining Tuvok and Neelix as dead, which is likewise convenient to your argument. The component parts are still there after the fact and if need be, could be once again recombined, this time with the consent of the two individuals. Separation allows for consultation without needing to be irreversible. Since they didn't recombine (either by transporter operation or mind meld), it is reasonable to assume they preferred independence.
I actually had to sit a little while and puzzle this one out. I'm not "arguing it would be murder", it WAS murder; they took the life of a sentient, unique individual against that individual's will. That's pretty much the dictionary definition of the word "murder". And I'm not "defining" Tuvok and Neelix as dead, they were dead, they no longer existed, their bodies were gone, their brains were gone, their personalities were gone. As they were not living, whether or not they -would have- consented to become Tuvix, or indeed whether or not they chose to recombine themselves again after Tuvix's murder, are entirely besides the point. At the time Tuvix's life was taken, the crew of the Voyager, and Janeway specifically, put their interpretation of the -potential- wishes of two dead crewmen above the wishes of a living, breathing, currently-extant sentient being.

Further, even if they had chosen to recombine again - Tuvix would still be dead. Such a recombination would have created another, distinct and unique individual, because once more: a person is more than memories, and there is no way that an accidental process based on what was ostensibly a biological -and thus partially randomised- reproductive mechanism could produce exactly the same physiological combination that was created during the first accident.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
06-11-2012, 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosolidshoe View Post
No, what I am arguing is that as the recipient in your example is guilty of no wrongdoing, had no intent to do any wrongdoing, and had no part in the initial immoral action, punishing that individual for the immoral action of another individual is wrong. That statement simply isn't disputable by any rational standard.
So if someone has a dieing relative or loved one, and is willing to take the risks, even die to save them, they should be allowed to do so? Remember, their goal is to save their loved one regardless of cost.

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Once again, personality is a function of BOTH memory AND neurology. The neurological structure of Tuvix's brain was unique and distinct from both Tuvok and Neelix, and as such his personality was unique even if all your other points were taken for granted. A mind meld cannot physically blend the neural substrate of the individuals participating in it, it allows a sharing of memory and experience, but the two distinct personalities remain throughout the whole experienced. This isn't something you can argue against either, not four episodes later in "Flashbacks", we see the Doctor monitoring Janeway and Tuvok while they participate in a mindmeld, and it is explicitly stated that he is monitoring two distinct sets of brainwave patterns throughout.
In this case the new personality was clearly a mix of the prior personalities. Tuvix even referred to himself as being 'both' rather than something completely different and independent of both. As such, the neurology cannot be completely different.

You are also inserting conventional medical logic into Star Trek, which is dangerous, since examples of more extreme mind melds (such as McCoy holding Spock's personality in ST:III or Picard's mind meld with Savek) reveal that irrespective of how it should work, it doesn't work that way.

[quote}No, actually, you are mixing definitions as you see fit. "Conscious" and "Unconscious" when used in the context of describing whether a being is a sentient, cognizant, unique individual do NOT mean the same as when they are used to describe whether a person is currently asleep or awake. I can be a "conscious entity" who is currently "unconscious", and there is no contradiction implied.

As to whether or not they remembered the experience, it's completely besides the point. Once again, personality is a function of both memory AND neurology, the fact that Tuvix possessed the memories of both Neelix and Tuvok does not mean he was two distinct individuals in one body, and the fact that Neelix and Tuvok may have retained memories of the experiences of Tuvix does NOT mean that the distinct, unique, individual that was "Tuvix" has not ceased to exist.[/quote]

Then why did McCoy exhibit Spock's personality while carrying it despite no neurological transformation?

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Wait, hold up chief. You attempted to equate one individual forcibly taking control of another individual with the Tuvix situation. I point out that this is a spurious comparison as Tuvix had no intent to do anything as he didn't exist prior to the accident, and thus cannot be guilty of forcing anything on anyone. At no point did I recant my argument that he is a distinct, unique, individual life form, merely that without intent, he cannot be compared to someone who deliberately usurps another's consciousness.
Academic that Tuvix had no intent. If it is a new entity it is a new entity. If it has independent rights as a new entity, it shouldn't matter how it became a new entity. Intent does not change the physical situation. You can't say 'unique entity, therefore right to life' and on the other hand say 'but it committed murder, therefore not unique entity, right to life.'

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Whether or not Tuvix is a result of the destruction of the many is not at issue, the issue is whether or not it is moral, ethical, just to punish the one when he had no involvement or responsibility whatsoever in the scenario which led to his creation. The answer to that, by the way, is "no, it isn't ethical".
You are saying those you deem dead have no rights. That is a very dangerous position. You are also saying to all their relatives and everyone they affect, 'oh well, stuff happens.'

[quote]As to the two Kirks, I've seen TOS in years so my memory is fuzzy; was any effort made to determine if they were sane and capable of rational decision making? If they were, then forcibly recombining them against their wishes, even if that would result in their deaths, would be absolutely wrong. Either sane individuals have a right to self determination or they don't, you can't pick and choose individual scenarios where it's suddenly A-OK to take that right away from them.

Even if they were not sane, there are other treatments. Regardless, the insane are not generally written off for being insane. Kirk's 'good' side decided they should be recombined, so that was the plan they went with. The 'evil' side was not treated as an independent individual.

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If Janeway herself is anything to go by, according to her they would be appalled at the idea of a life being taken to save their own. Further, how they -would- have chosen is, frankly, irrelevant - they no longer existed. They were gone, dead, kaput. Tuvix was not.
We may just have to agree to disagree. I dispute 'merged' as equaling 'dead.' There is a reason there are separate terms for 'clinical death' (which is usually reversible) and brain death (which usually isn't). If brain death was reversible too with full function after the procedure, they would come up with yet another new term for death or change the definition of clinical death.

It was reversible. They were not in an 'irreverable coma.' There was brain activity and the merging was reversible.

They were not dead.

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I actually had to sit a little while and puzzle this one out. I'm not "arguing it would be murder", it WAS murder; they took the life of a sentient, unique individual against that individual's will. That's pretty much the dictionary definition of the word "murder". And I'm not "defining" Tuvok and Neelix as dead, they were dead, they no longer existed, their bodies were gone, their brains were gone, their personalities were gone. As they were not living, whether or not they -would have- consented to become Tuvix, or indeed whether or not they chose to recombine themselves again after Tuvix's murder, are entirely besides the point. At the time Tuvix's life was taken, the crew of the Voyager, and Janeway specifically, put their interpretation of the -potential- wishes of two dead crewmen above the wishes of a living, breathing, currently-extant sentient being.

Further, even if they had chosen to recombine again - Tuvix would still be dead. Such a recombination would have created another, distinct and unique individual, because once more: a person is more than memories, and there is no way that an accidental process based on what was ostensibly a biological -and thus partially randomised- reproductive mechanism could produce exactly the same physiological combination that was created during the first accident.
We will have to agree to disagree. Our definitions are at odds, and it is not possible for either of us to convince the other without you being willing to debate your definitions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
06-12-2012, 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
We will have to agree to disagree. Our definitions are at odds, and it is not possible for either of us to convince the other without you being willing to debate your definitions.
As you wish, however I fail to see why I should be willing to "debate" definitions which are correct. By definition, something which does not exist cannot be alive, and after the creation of Tuvix, Neelix and Tuvok no longer existed. Their memories existed, but not them. It does not matter that they had the potential to exist again, because we acknowledge that the right of a living, conscious individual to self determination outweighs any consideration which might be given to a potential being which does not yet exist, and I don't want this to get sidetracked but it is the only even remotely comparable circumstance; see abortions.

If you can present a convincing argument that two individuals who have no body, no physical mind, no distinct personality, no individual consciousness, and no individual perception of events do, in fact, still exist, I'll happily hear it, but if you do I suggest you get it published, you'd win a Nobel for such an improbable act.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
06-12-2012, 01:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrobbiec
But you're not saving anyone by killing the child...that's really the point. If it was save both parents by killing the child, yes kill the child. Or harvest its stem cells or put it to some other good use or whatever.
It's the simple choice of kill one or kill two. Friends and family get their respective loved ones back and Tuvix lives on in their memories bla bla bla.

Ok. That is a simple way of boiling it down to the basics. Kill one person, who is active and can protest, or kill two who are, let's say not active, and can't offer any protests or any indications of what they want to do.



I love this thread.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
06-12-2012, 01:49 AM
Hey, Riker and Pulaski killed their clones and I belive Riker now has his own command. I see no issue here. (And Riker and Pulaski didn't even save anyone's life). Tuvix is not Neelix or Tuvok. Janeway decided to sacrifice one individual for two other individuals. She couldn't have both. I think her behavior may be morally questionable - but really in the sense of "you can ask if it was the right thing to do and may have trouble finding the right answer". But it was probably not illegal in any way.

Troi learned during her training for the Commander rank that she should be willing to order a crewman to certain death if it saves her crew and her ship. I think Janeway's behavior was along the same lines (even with "lower" stakes, still the same issue.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
06-12-2012, 04:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
But the one life is not the direct combination of the other two, nor likely the only source of stem cells.
True enough. The problem with analogy is if you go looking for the dissimilarities you will always shoot them down. An analogy, however similar, is always by necessity different from the scenario it's being equated to. If it were not, it would be merely a reiteration of that scenario. You need to look for what's similar. In this case, the point is a living being's right to life and self-determination, and the freedom from infringement of these rights to the benefit of others.

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Originally Posted by Kimmera
And yet they have the personality of the controller.
Yes and No. They exhibit the personality of the controller. The controller's personality is not necessarily imprinted on the victim, it may merely be the recipient of commands. Even if it's physically present in the body or brain of the victim, there's a difference between an altered consciousness, and a suppressed consciousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
But the potential for consciousness is still there with Tuvix. Separate the entities and the consciousness returns
Not arguing against that. But a potential being does not have the same rights as an actual being. Until they are made to exist again, they can't be wronged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
I think you need to read up on the definition of Criminal Negligence.
I know what criminal negligence is. I don't see what you mean by this, however. You seem to be either,

A: Arguing that Janeway might be held accountable for the accident that resulted in the loss of Tuvok and Neelix, and the creation of Tuvix. I see no basis for that. I recall noone saying they violated any safety protocols. Criminal negligence applies only when you're knowingly taking shortcuts, it can't be applied to the completely unforeseen.

or,

B: Arguing that Janeway might be held accountable for not bringing her crewmembers back. That seems highly unlikely. I've never heard of anyone being convicted for being unable to resurrect the dead. But since murder is a category A crime, I'd take my chances with the criminal negligence charges any day, even if I left my sense of morality out of this and I were motivated by nothing else than the consequences of my choice to me personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
Academic. The combination fits your definition of 'new entity' just as much as Tuvix. You are making a distinction based on mechanism of combination. In this case, the outside force was the transporter. Using the tech in the correct manner again reverses the process.
I'm making a distinction based on will. Ethics are about justice. Determining right or wrong is done by asking the question, is this justified? It is not justified to harm an innocent. Even though you can argue Tuvix' existance harms Tuvok and Neelix in robbing them of theirs, Tuvix having had no hand in his own creation absolves him of any responsibility. And either responsibility, or voluntary consent, should have been required to justify harming him for Tuvok and Neelix' benefit.

Mechanism really doesn't have anything to do with it. And, well... just because we can do a thing, [blank]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
No more than if they were simply trapped in the transporter buffer. They are merely 'mostly dead.'
Well, no... In the transporter buffer their patterns would be intact but separate and in a non-functioning stasis. It's true that if they had caught Tuvix in the pattern buffer and never materialized him, then separated the patterns, there would've never been a third consciousness and I'd be more than ready to go along with the notion that rather than anyone being killed, two deaths were prevented.

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Originally Posted by Kimmera
Since the ingredients still exist and are separable, they still exist.
Whoa there stretch, I had a cheese sandwich half an hour ago. Not some milk, flour and salt, even though I'm damned sure a transporter or replicator could sort that thing right back out. Probably could even after I'm, you know, 'done with it'. Create some water for your resident Vulcan's tea and some nice boots for Tucker.

Using your reasoning here, how could you possibly ever declare anyone or anything to be dead? If it's all still there? What exactly has to be missing for them to count as dead and gone? The conventional answer is brain function. And all Tuvix having a functioning brain proves, is that Tuvix is alive. It says nothing about the state, if they have any at all, of Neelix or Tuvok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
Something similar already happened involving the transporter buffer of DS9. They were sorted out and tossed into holograms until their bodies could be reconstituted. Since photonic life forms have been deemed living, was it murder to restore them to conventional bodies? Should they have been left in the pattern buffer in the first place?
That was rather a different scenario. Those holograms didn't have the consciousnesses of the crew. Those were contained in different parts of the station computer. The holosuites were storing their physical bodies, making characters from the holonovel look like the DS9 crew, but still behave as they always would. And they seemed to lack the self-awareness to realize they'd undergone one hell of a makeover. Google the mirror test for the method by which infants and some animals have been tested for self-awareness, if you wonder what the implication is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
Again you there is that prejudicial language though, with the 'whaaaaaambulance.' Is your case that weak that you feel the need for such comments?
Simply an attempt at levity. I thought it was a clear enough way to convey Joe Starfleet in this scenario was motivated primarily through an emotional sense of loss. Is your case so weak that you must lift out phrases to take offense at, rather than address the arguments?

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Originally Posted by Kimmera
The prime directive applies to the internal affairs of a species as a whole, and is limited when the welfare of the Federation is at stake (or they would never be able to defend themselves or trade with anyone). It also applies primarily to less developed civilizations. it is hard to argue Tuvix was less developed.
Well, the prime directive, or some general order. Tuvix was however the only Vulaxian in existance. His own entire species. Destroyed to bring back one stock Vulcan and one slightly underwhelming Talaxian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
Not if they were both influencing the other. In fact, arguably, it proves the original two would have similar survival instincts.
Would have. Again, potentially. I'm starting to feel like a broken record. And yeah, of course they'd want to live. That's pretty much the default position for all life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
So if someone has a dieing relative or loved one, and is willing to take the risks, even die to save them, they should be allowed to do so? Remember, their goal is to save their loved one regardless of cost.
Should be allowed? No. It should be prevented. But once it's done, it's done. You can put the guy away for life, or leave him without food or water in an airlock with the outer hatch unlocked, but you can't punish the innocent in this.

I believe you, or someone else in your camp, made the argument that in DS9 the guy who set out to rob Dax of her symbiote should've, by our logic, been allowed to keep it. That's just not true. It's a golden rule thing. You infringe on people's rights, you give up those your rights yourself. This person orchestrated the whole thing. Nothing happened beyond his control, and if he'd done nothing he wouldn't have suffered for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
Then why did McCoy exhibit Spock's personality while carrying it despite no neurological transformation?
Space hocus pocus. Why can you keep katras in a jar? Those things don't make a whole lot of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
You are saying those you deem dead have no rights. That is a very dangerous position. You are also saying to all their relatives and everyone they affect, 'oh well, stuff happens.'
Yes, thank you! I don't know if that's what he's saying, I think so, but that's definately my take on it. Stuff happens. Once I'm dead, if my family decides to infringe on my 'rights' and bury me rather than cremate me, cause they can't stand the idea of coming back as zombies without me (and who could blame them?), it's not injustice. I'm dead. I'm not aware of it. It couldn't bother me if I wanted it to.

Also, that is the position Roddenberry says humans in the 24th century should take. Much to the chagrin of the TNG writing staff, as it's hard to create a whole lot of drama without people being at least a little worried about losing their friends, but still. That's what makes the clearly emotional basis for what was done to Tuvix that much more objectionable. They should've been above that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimmera
Even if they were not sane, there are other treatments. Regardless, the insane are not generally written off for being insane. Kirk's 'good' side decided they should be recombined, so that was the plan they went with. The 'evil' side was not treated as an independent individual.
You realize you're arguing for the evil side, right?

Anyway, since both aspects of Kirk were going to die if they were not merged, forcing the merger on one or both of them would ultimately not change their fate by much. Furthermore, unlike Tuvix, we can hardly consider evil Kirk a well-adjusted, functioning member of society. He was nothing more than a hazard, and he wasn't going to live long enough to make treatment or incarceration a possibility. In the end, the crew of the Enterprise by going along with 'good Kirk' decided merely to not let him drag the rest of Kirk down into death with him.

This is really more of a light gray area. Tuvix is just pitch-black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully
Troi learned during her training for the Commander rank that she should be willing to order a crewman to certain death if it saves her crew and her ship. I think Janeway's behavior was along the same lines (even with "lower" stakes, still the same issue.)
Those lower stakes are exactly what made this illegal. Frankly, there were no stakes. They stood to lose nothing they had not already lost.

As for those clones, it's a bit dubious, but somehow I doubt Riker would've gone through with that had one of them sat up and said, "Please don't." They were not yet fully formed, still in the process of being grown, and I would assume not yet aware.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
06-12-2012, 04:50 AM
loljaneway

S1E07
"Oh, wait, we'd be transporting ourselves 20 years into the past. We can't do anything that would harm the timeline. Ah well."


S7 end
"I don't like how this all turned out. I'm going to go re-do everything."



No offense to Mulgrew, as I've come to think she played the role well, but Janeway is kind of a dumb character.
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