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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
06-12-2012, 06:03 AM
That whole redo everything never sat well with me, and goes back to what I said about her 'friends' list. She doesn't decide to go back and stop the Voyager and maquis getting pulled into the Delta Quadrant, no. She goes back to stop Seven getting killed. What about everyone else on your damned ship that you lost? You can't use the excuse that you dont want to disrupt the timeline, because that's what you are doing.


Ok, you argue that if she did that, Kes wouldn't have been freed from the Kazon, the Ocompa could have been killed by the Kazon taking the Array, and Seven would never be freed from the collective.


To that, I say: You're in a time ship with super advanced tech. Go back, stop the voyager and maquis ship entering the badlands, then jump to the delta quadrant and save Kes, stop the Kazon, reunite her with Neelix, then jump to Scorpion and find and save Seven. And the Equinox? Stop that ship from getting lost? Or all those other alien ships that got pulled there? Neelix said the Caretaker had been brining ships there for months.


And what about those other years you cut off? I'm sure you encountered and helped alot of people in those years, like you did with Kes and Seven. Do those people not deserve your help either?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
06-12-2012, 12:03 PM
Reave,


To me the difference is relevant, in that if Tuvix was suffering from an infection, parasite or some other commonly recognized forced change, the answer would usually be 'cure.'


The point is you are defining suppressed in that case. If the suppression takes no active effort on the part of the invader, how is it a different situation other than a moral judgement of the invader? The situation is reversible, but it is with Tuvix as well, and the controlling consciousness would almost certainly not be quick to accept forced separation.

How about Janeway and Paris in 'threshold?' Should they have been left in their new forms?

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Not arguing against that. But a potential being does not have the same rights as an actual being. Until they are made to exist again, they can't be wronged.
That does not follow. That implies that there is no obligation on the part of a doctor to revive someone clinically dead. Their are dead. Their heart has stopped beating and blood has stopped pumping. Even if they were brain dead, with no brain activity whatsoever, if a procedure existed that could revive them with no resulting brain damage and full quality of life, would you still be arguing 'No, they ceased to have a right to life?'

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I know what criminal negligence is. I don't see what you mean by this, however. You seem to be either,

A: Arguing that Janeway might be held accountable for the accident that resulted in the loss of Tuvok and Neelix, and the creation of Tuvix. I see no basis for that. I recall noone saying they violated any safety protocols. Criminal negligence applies only when you're knowingly taking shortcuts, it can't be applied to the completely unforeseen. .
A. Using an inherrently dangerous technology with a risk to life simply from using it, in a situation where there was no imminent threat requiring its use. If you fail to de-ice your porch and fail to adequately warn of the risks you can be negligent. This is well beyond an icy porch.

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I'm making a distinction based on will. Ethics are about justice. .
You are asking if it is justified to kill Tuvix without asking if it is justified to fail to save Tuvok and Neelix, whom Tuvix acknowledges are still alive in him ("I am both" is that acknowledgement).

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Mechanism really doesn't have anything to do with it. And, well... just because we can do a thing, [blank]
If mechanism does not matter, neither does guilt. Guilt in having instigated an event is mechanism. Either the new combination has an independent right to life or it does not. If it does, its guilt or innocence in its creation should not be a factor. it is a new living being with its own right to life, just as any murderer is (hence many nations having no death penalty).

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Whoa there stretch, I had a cheese sandwich half an hour ago.
If you watch any cooking shows you will see challenges in which components of a dish are indeed separated and reassembled into new dishes. Not to the degree you are talking about but then Tuvix wasn't separated into piles of raw elements either.... EXCEPT.... isn't that what happens every time anyone uses a transporter? It isn't like there is any evidence of being able to think mid transmission as an energy signal. Based on your definition of life, do transporters murder and recreate every time they are used? And if so, does anyone have a right to be recreated at the other end?

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Using your reasoning here, how could you possibly ever declare anyone or anything to be dead? If it's all still there? What exactly has to be missing for them to count as dead and gone? The conventional answer is brain function. And all Tuvix having a functioning brain proves, is that Tuvix is alive. It says nothing about the state, if they have any at all, of Neelix or Tuvok.
Very interesting question. My answer would be that it was more than just the molecules there in Tuvix. Both personalities were there (merged) and since they remained completely intact after the separation procedure, it is reasonable to conclude that the data pattern that defines each of the two original beings was preserved too.

As for other cases, I have never understood why Spock wasn't savable at the end of Wrath of Khan other than for dramatic purposes. They have shown an ability to handle worse damage than that medically. It is literally case by case though. In this case, a procedure existed that could reverse the process. In most cases where the patient is pronounced "Dead, Jim", that isn't the case. There was another case (I can't remember the episode) where someone was pronounced dead, but was revived with the explanation 'We don't count that as dead in this century' I think it was one of the movies?

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That was rather a different scenario. Those holograms didn't have the consciousnesses of the crew.
It has been a long time since I saw that ep, but if they weren't conscious, and existed only as data, weren't they dead by your definition and as such shouldn't they have been left that way?

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Well, the prime directive, or some general order. Tuvix was however the only Vulaxian in existance. His own entire species. Destroyed to bring back one stock Vulcan and one slightly underwhelming Talaxian.
His entire species that may or may not have been able to reproduce. You are also mixing in value judgments with respect to Tuvok and Neelix. I am not a big fan of either, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. If that was humor, it failed again....

[quote]Would have. Again, potentially. I'm starting to feel like a broken record. And yeah, of course they'd want to live. That's pretty much the default position for all life.

Should be allowed? No. It should be prevented. But once it's done, it's done. You can put the guy away for life, or leave him without food or water in an airlock with the outer hatch unlocked, but you can't punish the innocent in this.

I believe you, or someone else in your camp, made the argument that in DS9 the guy who set out to rob Dax of her symbiote should've, by our logic, been allowed to keep it. That's just not true. It's a golden rule thing. You infringe on people's rights, you give up those your rights yourself. This person orchestrated the whole thing. Nothing happened beyond his control, and if he'd done nothing he wouldn't have suffered for it.

Well it would have to have been the other way around since the symbiote becomes dominant. But the principle remains and remains problematic. The new combination is a new entity. The new entity might be punished, but you are arguing that the new entity should not be separated since it has a separate right to life.

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Space hocus pocus. Why can you keep katras in a jar? Those things don't make a whole lot of sense.
We are debating this in the context of canon. In RL it isn't an issue since Tuvix's existence is no less 'space hocus pocus.' You don't get to cherry pick which parts of the act are 'real.'

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Yes, thank you! I don't know if that's what he's saying, I think so, but that's definately my take on it. Stuff happens. Once I'm dead, if my family decides to infringe on my 'rights' and bury me rather than cremate me, cause they can't stand the idea of coming back as zombies without me (and who could blame them?), it's not injustice. I'm dead. I'm not aware of it. It couldn't bother me if I wanted it to.
Again, someone using a transporter beam has no right to be recreated at the other end, per your definitions. They are raw data mid transmission. Pretty much everyone in Star Fleet (and a great many out of star fleet) are dead already and have no rights.

Like I said, it is dangerous to be too quick to declare people dead.

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Also, that is the position Roddenberry says humans in the 24th century should take. Much to the chagrin of the TNG writing staff, as it's hard to create a whole lot of drama without people being at least a little worried about losing their friends, but still. That's what makes the clearly emotional basis for what was done to Tuvix that much more objectionable. They should've been above that.
Ah the Cult of Gene defense. Cite the dead guy who is two dead to contradict you. The Kirks were recombined, against the will of the aggressive Kirk. The new entities do not have separate rights to life, at least on Gene's watch.

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You realize you're arguing for the evil side, right?
I am pointing out the flaws in your argument via historical (canon) precedent. This is especially relevant since you invoked the Cult of Gene defense.

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Anyway, since both aspects of Kirk were going to die if they were not merged, forcing the merger on one or both of them would ultimately not change their fate by much. Furthermore, unlike Tuvix, we can hardly consider evil Kirk a well-adjusted, functioning member of society. He was nothing more than a hazard, and he wasn't going to live long enough to make treatment or incarceration a possibility. In the end, the crew of the Enterprise by going along with 'good Kirk' decided merely to not let him drag the rest of Kirk down into death with him.
That was not a given. They didn't try treatment as individuals. 'Evil' Kirk was in sick bay but woke up, went to the bridge and ordered the ship out of orbit. Rather than get him back to sick bay and keep him properly tranq'd pending treatment, they (on 'Good' Kirk's orders) tossed the two of them in the transporter and put them back together. There was no evidence that any psychiatric or adrenal treatment was attempted on either of them, despite evidence that they have very advanced psychiatric facilities.

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Those lower stakes are exactly what made this illegal. Frankly, there were no stakes. They stood to lose nothing they had not already lost.

As for those clones, it's a bit dubious, but somehow I doubt Riker would've gone through with that had one of them sat up and said, "Please don't." They were not yet fully formed, still in the process of being grown, and I would assume not yet aware.
Since the process was reversible, they didn't need to endure the loss. Opportunity costs are still costs.

As for the clones, as long as they didn't affect Will, we know that one duplicate Riker was allowed to live, although he ended up joining the Maquis and kidnapping Kiria....

The rule of thumb seems to be 'if there is no harm to the original entitie(s), the new entitie(s) have a right to life.'
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
06-12-2012, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grylak
That whole redo everything never sat well with me, and goes back to what I said about her 'friends' list. She doesn't decide to go back and stop the Voyager and maquis getting pulled into the Delta Quadrant, no. She goes back to stop Seven getting killed. What about everyone else on your damned ship that you lost? You can't use the excuse that you dont want to disrupt the timeline, because that's what you are doing.


Ok, you argue that if she did that, Kes wouldn't have been freed from the Kazon, the Ocompa could have been killed by the Kazon taking the Array, and Seven would never be freed from the collective.


To that, I say: You're in a time ship with super advanced tech. Go back, stop the voyager and maquis ship entering the badlands, then jump to the delta quadrant and save Kes, stop the Kazon, reunite her with Neelix, then jump to Scorpion and find and save Seven. And the Equinox? Stop that ship from getting lost? Or all those other alien ships that got pulled there? Neelix said the Caretaker had been brining ships there for months.

And what about those other years you cut off? I'm sure you encountered and helped alot of people in those years, like you did with Kes and Seven. Do those people not deserve your help either?
If she prevented Voyager from entering the Delta quardant, wouldn't she have suddenly found herself no longer on the timeship? At some point the paradoxes do start to cause problems....

And it is not clear what other repercussions there would have been. At the very least, Star Fleet wouldn't have all that delta quadrant/borg tech and their war against the borg might not have gone so well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
06-12-2012, 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grylak
You're in a time ship with super advanced tech.
It wasn't a timeship, it was just standard shuttle with an illegal deflector hat.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
06-12-2012, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketch5430 View Post
...and don't get me started on the super evolved space salamanders... :\
Warp 10 is Lizards
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
06-13-2012, 03:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrobbiec
It wasn't a timeship, it was just standard shuttle with an illegal deflector hat.
Ok, but the hat made it a timeship. In respect that it is a ship that can travel through time.


Quote:
If she prevented Voyager from entering the Delta quardant, wouldn't she have suddenly found herself no longer on the timeship? At some point the paradoxes do start to cause problems....

And it is not clear what other repercussions there would have been. At the very least, Star Fleet wouldn't have all that delta quadrant/borg tech and their war against the borg might not have gone so well.

She didn't dissapear off her shuttle when she went back to Voyager. But then, I guess Voyager to did take the armour tech back to Starfleet. Ok, that makes sense. But I still think she displayed favouritism to her boffs over her doffs.


And bringing it back on topic... Neelix and Tuvok were boffs, Tuvix was a doff.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
06-13-2012, 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sollaf View Post
Warp 10 is Lizards
This is one of the things I love about this game. "Hey Janeway! I'm going warp ten and I'M not turning into a space lizard! NYEEH!!!!" :p

I think the only way to possibly enjoy voyager is hope that one (of the many, many) times they messed with the time-line rendered half of it nonexistent. For the sake of our sanity, it's the only way.....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
06-13-2012, 08:56 PM
Every transport is a murder with an exact copy walking away on the other end of the process. They maintain their rights simply because the society they're in deems them worthy of those rights.

Regardless...

The Tuvix problem comes down to you believing creatures have some sort of spirit form or not. A soul or a katra or whatever. If you think the ghosts of Neelix and Tuvok were floating around somewhere waiting to be put back into their own bodies, then you'd tend to agree the separation was justified.

If you think, as I do, that all creatures are defined by the meat they're made of and nothing else, then the separation was indeed a murder since Tuvix was an independent, functioning being who didn't want to have its life ended.

It's a great idea for a story about painful choices needing to be made. But since the status quo button had to be pressed every episode it wasn't given the exploration it deserved. Tuvok and Neelix should have been haunted by the murder their individuality required for years afterward. Hell, Janeway should have been in a crying heap in the corner of her quarters at the end of the episode.

The episode pretty much sums up Voyager as a whole: The ideas were far greater than their ability to pull them off.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
06-14-2012, 07:27 AM
That's a fair summation twg.

As to the series finale, what made it particularly egregious was S5E24; what, did the "timecop" guys with their super-special temporally shielded spaceship and the mandate to prevent time travellers from changing the timeline go on strike or something? I mean hells bells, they jumped through a fair number of hoops just to prevent one insignificant ship in the middle of nowhere from being blown up, yet they're totally cool with the concept of someone going back in time to **** the entire Borg collective and drastically advance Federation technology for personal gain? :/
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
06-14-2012, 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace
This is one of the things I love about this game. "Hey Janeway! I'm going warp ten and I'M not turning into a space lizard! NYEEH!!!!" :p

I think the only way to possibly enjoy voyager is hope that one (of the many, many) times they messed with the time-line rendered half of it nonexistent. For the sake of our sanity, it's the only way.....
Janeway and Tom Paris evolutionary future look more grim than yours then...
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