Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
06-16-2012, 01:23 AM
I've read the topic and to be frank you've established nothing. You even went as far as to try to establish that children could in fact stop an adult, something that's fairly proveably wrong. There's no precedent in canon that tractor beams work in any way that is NOT syncronious with the mass of the ship projecting and being towed.

Can a smaller ship haul a larger one? Absolutely, the Defiant towed I believe it was an excelsior back to DS9 when it was diabled by a Maquis attack (For the Uniform). But it was a completely disabled, dead in space ship.

A Bird of Prey was able to target and haul in a Freighter that wasn't disabled and under it's own power, but the viewscreen on the Defiant showed considerable size disparity between the freighter and the BoP in favor of the latter (Way of the Warrior) This goes to indicate that size does in point of fact matter.

In fact any time a ship has been hauled with a tractor beam in almost any series, and I've watched them all, the ship doing the towed has been larger when the ship was active. The Defiant was able to throw a beam in a Vorcha class cruiser that was on it's tail, but you'll note it did not slow and certainly did not stop the ship. (Way of the Warrior again)

I'm afraid your arguements have no precedence in canon. As for arguements presented in this thread, they have offered nothing in the way of supporting evidence to back them and ergo have "established" nothing.
Lt. Commander
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# 22
06-16-2012, 02:20 AM
This game is 30 years in the future of the Voyager so what is not possible back then can be possible now. Tractor beams are based on energy output and configuration. New technology could have been established like a better tractor beam that no longer uses gravitons, but a better particle or they use a pulsed tractor beam where the turns off and on every millisecond. That would give more give to the tractor beam and more energy used for each pulse, but the energy consumption would be the same as a continuous tractor beam.

Besides there are many instances where gameplay trumps canon in this game. Nerfing tractor beams for Escorts compared to Cruisers would make quite a few people angry for the sake of realism. If it is a major problem in PvP, then it should get fixed for shuttles and pets. However, it might be an issue that is too irritating for what its worth. I rather have devs spend time on creating useful content and fixing annoying bugs than spending a week on this.
Lt. Commander
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# 23 interesting....
06-16-2012, 05:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ncha
I'm not sure where else to post this but it's pretty much a plea to Cryptic to please fix these Danube and Avanced Danube pets the Carriers and soon Akira's will have. The mechanic around their tractor beam ability is horribly broken. Carriers and Bortas/Bortasque's are all heavy cruiser/capital ships. The idea that even a dozen runabouts could stop ships of that size dead is as ridiculous as the thought that a few elementary school children could grab the arms of a full grown adult and actually stop them from going anywhere. If this were attempted in the show the runabouts attempting to stop the ship would be torn apart and disabled to the point of no future use if they didn't have a warp core breach when the runabout was torn apart structurally.

I don't mind if it slows me down some, but the shuttles should take consistent damage when the tracors are engaged on a capital ship until either the ability ends or they succumn to the damage.
lets not confuse real world physics with a game engine mechanics team.

The two are not compatible. While many raise good points in this thread, lets not forget that the game mechanic itself, tractor beam, is a global setting more then likely. It's intent is to give a sort of crowd control to the game to match up to a feature that exists in Star Trek. While in RL we understand the physics behind this, making that kind of tech work in the game is no small feat.

The sheer breakdown of just mass vs mass would be a serious feat to itself for the game.

Like it or not, you may have to change some of your tactics OR deal with the pets some. While I can sympathize some with how it does not seem correct in RL aspect, never forget this is a game with its own mechanics and it simply just does not take mass into account in its combat structure.

Also I find that some, not saying you, complain about things because they do not wish to adjust their tactics to deal with new things. Instead they want the new thing NERF'd so they do not have to change up their builds or their cookie cutter setups. Personally I think having a wide system like the game has is a boon, not a hinderence, it keeps things new and ever changing so there can not be "one to rule them all" style of setup.

Could it be better? Sure can, but to have the game mechanic taking Mass into account and handing out damage Due to a mass difference between the two objects?? hmm that be a seriously tall order.
Lt. Commander
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# 24
06-16-2012, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starkaos View Post
If it is a major problem in PvP, then it should get fixed for shuttles and pets. However, it might be an issue that is too irritating for what its worth.
Which is basically all I'm asking to happen.


Quote:
Also I find that some, not saying you, complain about things because they do not wish to adjust their tactics to deal with new things. Instead they want the new thing NERF'd so they do not have to change up their builds or their cookie cutter setups. Personally I think having a wide system like the game has is a boon, not a hinderence, it keeps things new and ever changing so there can not be "one to rule them all" style of setup.
I can respect your analysis but unfortunately more and more as you go through the PVP ques all one sees is the immortal cross healing cruiser with extends net and immortal shield tanking escorts that I have dubbed "shieldscorts". Knowing the builds of both however, I was able to modify the former to break the latter, by instituting a target subsystem. Unfortunately, in order to modify my build (which I have intentionally made modular to run different configurations depending on the situation) I have at most 3 tactical slots, and in the science heavy setup needed to break up the ball of the aforementioned group I only have two. And I need one of them to be an Attack Pattern Beta in order to put on a damage resistance debuff. So then it becomes do I put in FAW to deal with the tractor pets (which ridiculously stop me dead) or do I keep my target subsystem and hope I'm able to separate the scort from his support long enough to break him and take him down? Which is again not really feasible because their shield generator (carrier) spam has me unreasonably locked in place while the carrier compensates my efforts with support.
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# 25
06-16-2012, 03:48 PM
Quote:
I've read the topic and to be frank you've established nothing. You even went as far as to try to establish that children could in fact stop an adult, something that's fairly proveably wrong. There's no precedent in canon that tractor beams work in any way that is NOT syncronious with the mass of the ship projecting and being towed.
Um. provable wrong. How? Again, I'd like to see an adult run full speed through a DOZEN kids all trying to grapple/hold onto him, and not trip/get dragged down too. If not trip, get slowed down stopped. Or, as somebody pointed out, eight kids to be more in line with how many runabouts could be launched total from an Atrox carrier.

Sure, two kids just grabbing his wrists and him breaking into a run. that wouldn't work. Likewise, two kids grabbing his wrists as he runs past wouldn't work well. but 8 kids, grabbing whatever they can as the guy runs THROUGH them, that'll slow or stop him.
Lt. Commander
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# 26
06-16-2012, 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalavier View Post
Um. provable wrong. How? Again, I'd like to see an adult run full speed through a DOZEN kids all trying to grapple/hold onto him, and not trip/get dragged down too. If not trip, get slowed down stopped. Or, as somebody pointed out, eight kids to be more in line with how many runabouts could be launched total from an Atrox carrier.

Sure, two kids just grabbing his wrists and him breaking into a run. that wouldn't work. Likewise, two kids grabbing his wrists as he runs past wouldn't work well. but 8 kids, grabbing whatever they can as the guy runs THROUGH them, that'll slow or stop him.
Slow down, yes, stop, no. And further, a full grown adult with momentum behind him him with the mindset of running through them? At best you'd have six, but probably five left standing after the initial contact as kids are not durable, the ones in the brunt of the impact as the adult went through would be neutralized. An adult vs eight kids with the kids trying to stop the adult from reaching point B? I'm sorry, it's not going to happen.

Which is why the danubes should take damage while the effect is engaged. The kids would be having their arms wrenched out of their sockets as the adult pushed forward (the consistent damage I propose shuttles take with a tractor on a larger ship in game sitation), when the adult was first encountered with full bore momentum there would be damage inflicted on the kids neutralizing some (destroying the runabouts in game situation). Anyway you slice it, your faith in the arguements that the kids are gonna stop the adult are misplaced. Simple physics is on my side with that. Would the kids slow the adult? Most likely, I'm fine with shuttles slowing me, but dead stop? Not gonna happen.
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# 27
06-16-2012, 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ncha
Which is basically all I'm asking to happen.
No you're just whining like a cry baby cause your uber build has to be modified or you need to make compromises.

Quote:
I can respect your analysis but unfortunately more and more as you go through the PVP ques all one sees is the immortal cross healing cruiser with extends net and immortal shield tanking escorts that I have dubbed "shieldscorts". Knowing the builds of both however, I was able to modify the former to break the latter, by instituting a target subsystem. Unfortunately, in order to modify my build (which I have intentionally made modular to run different configurations depending on the situation) I have at most 3 tactical slots, and in the science heavy setup needed to break up the ball of the aforementioned group I only have two. And I need one of them to be an Attack Pattern Beta in order to put on a damage resistance debuff. So then it becomes do I put in FAW to deal with the tractor pets (which ridiculously stop me dead) or do I keep my target subsystem and hope I'm able to separate the scort from his support long enough to break him and take him down? Which is again not really feasible because their shield generator (carrier) spam has me unreasonably locked in place while the carrier compensates my efforts with support.
Oh noes you can't counter everything at once and might have to rely on a teammate to clear pets for you, or sacrifice some single target damage to counter them? That's not called a problem that's called tactics. You've just proved to me this new addition is great as it's shaking up the tired old game and forcing new thinking, so quit QQing over it because of "realism" and adapt or die.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
06-16-2012, 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
No you're just whining like a cry baby cause your uber build has to be modified or you need to make compromises.
And with his arguement cut to pieces with a reasoned counter arguement Captain Jonathan Janeway Picard Kirk Feddybear dips into the name calling with his next best attack: witless prattle. Well done. *golf clap*


Quote:
Oh noes you can't counter everything at once and might have to rely on a teammate to clear pets for you, or sacrifice some single target damage to counter them? That's not called a problem that's called ****ing tactics. You've just proved to me this new addition is great as it's shaking up the tired old game and forcing new thinking, so quit QQing over ******** because of "realism" and adapt or die.
Such a noble and straight forward arguement from the Febbybear that I'll bet you a ton of latinum probably rage quits when Klingons use their consoles that come with their ships. You and your kind are dangerously close to convincing me that perhaps the honorable unspoken agreement between PVPers of not using "BS consoles" is maybe overrated in light of "new developments".

We'll see how well you "adapt or die" when you run across a full Klingon battle group bringing EVERYTHING at our disposal to the fight.

At any rate, you've done nothing to show that my arguement against Danubes is invalid and if that's your attitude than cool, plasmonic leeches, tachyon drones and power siphons can be brought to bear in each engagement. See how long before the forums light up with cries for "nerfing".
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 29
06-16-2012, 08:07 PM
Is there really any proof that tractoring something larger then themselves will cause damage to the ship?

Also, as stated in this very topic. Tractor beams are a global setting. You can't just make shuttles using tractor beams to be less effective.

Edit: Again, show me that a man will keep running after having his leg clung unto by a kid after the first impact.

Edit2: I actually mentioned this to my dad. He outright started laughing at the idea the adult could keep going after trying to barrel through the group of 8-12 kids.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 30
06-16-2012, 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalavier View Post
Is there really any proof that tractoring something larger then themselves will cause damage to the ship?

Also, as stated in this very topic. Tractor beams are a global setting. You can't just make shuttles using tractor beams to be less effective.

Edit: Again, show me that a man will keep running after having his leg clung unto by a kid after the first impact.

Edit2: I actually mentioned this to my dad. He outright started laughing at the idea the adult could keep going after trying to barrel through the group of 8-12 kids.
First off your dad must be a tiny man then because if we are going to go down this line lets establish something. To put a near accurate size ratio to this my carrier, which is massive being an understatement is say for example irl equal to the Big Show from WWE. While the shuttles irl would be equivalent to say newborn babies. Not that this argument matters but you see how ludicrous it is to keep going down this line of comparison.

Now while I will agree that it would take some work it CAN be done. I'm not crying NERF!! NERF!! I also take into account that this is a long way in the future and we are not even really sure how all this would work so go back to my previous argument of the tugboat vs ocean liner. The tugboat will not even have a chance at stopping an ocean liner that is sailing along at full speed. There should be some invers damage ratio here. Now while I would agree that 8 or 10 would make a significant impact we aren't talking about a ship that is at a full stop. It would still destroy some, disable others an maybe a couple would be just fine. I don't however believe that it is just going to stop me dead in my tracks as if I hit a wall. The momentum of my ship is entirely too much for that to happen.

Like I say I realize this is a bit sketchy at best to speculate on but if you really think you would be stopped dead in your tracks please get in your car and go find a 18 wheeler. Pull along side of him and throw a grappling hook with a really huge chain on to the truck and make sure it attaches. It should go without saying it needs to be sucurely fastened to your car. Now slam the bake pedal to the floor and see how efective you are at stopping this truck. Even with 6 or 7 cars at freeway speeds which is what would be equivalent to this scenario you would get drug along for quite a way before you stop the truck.

But alas this is also why these arguments are reduiculous to begin with as a true comparison can't be made. However you have to agree that some damage should occur. Ther are at least a few episodes I remember hearing the computer warning emminent loss of structural integrity when tractor beams have been held a bit longer than they should have been. Im not a historian so no I don't remember the episode names but if you have watched a lot of trek then you too should remember this.
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