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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31 the new akira
06-18-2012, 08:39 AM
There are a few escorts for the fed side. The biggest disadvantage is shield power the extra science consoles on mvae/mvam allow for a higher shield rating also you lose a high level tac ability. So damage output can get effected also having this escort addresses inequities with kdf side. All this for some pets that when get touched die. I would say the ships big advantage is the extra Eng slot. That ability is gold. Aux to structural 2 is yummy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
06-18-2012, 08:51 AM
I never bought the ship for the pets, I could really care less about them. I bought it for being the Engineer slanted va escort. The lt cmdr boff slot far out weights anything the pets can do for me

I do not foresee myself flying any other escort for pve, maybe the mvam for crowd control, but then having access to attack pattern diarrhoea could be better..
The defiant-r is still my weapon of choice for pvp and that wont change

If the pet ai in this game were even remotely useful I could see the benefit, but all they are to me is a distraction.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
06-18-2012, 08:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doylematt4 View Post
PLEASE DO NOT ASK why the Armitage is so good. Or the devs will nerf her. I'm more than happy with exactly how the ship currently is

Let the pvpers whine about how over powered she is so she gets her nerf. That's the unwritten rule
PvPers have some legitimate complaints, but those complaints shouldn't be aimed specifically at this ship or its one hangar bay.

Here's the compounded issue:

1) Carrier Pet design & implementation with regards to PvP.
2) Spam: both a UI/lag issue as well as pets spamming specific powers which either have no counter (chrontion proc - no counter, phaser proc - I believe no counter, subsys repair used to help but I don't believe it's working) or are extremely difficult (if not imposible) to counter en masse (pet spammed tractor beams).
3) Flight Deck Officer Hangar rech reduction.



As for the ship itself it has a similar build as the MVAE with regards to BOFFs, swapping out Sci Lt Comm for Eng Lt Comm.

Every other C-store, T5 Escort also has 2 bonus features - just as this one does.


While the OP seems to think Carriers lose turn rate to be carriers, in reality they lose turn rate for a number of things.

The Atrox for example as a massive cruiser-like hull (approx 40K base) combined with Sci ship shielding (1.2 Modifier - higher than any Cruiser available, including the Odyssey Class), 4 Device Slots (vs. 3 for standard Sci ships) and a unique BOFF layout that grants 2 Lt Commander stations in addition to a Commander Station which trades out the relatively low value extra ensign boff slot (1 power) for an additional high value Lt Commander Slot (1 power).


The OP is looking at the Armitage and possibly thinking it needs a nerf in comparison to his own favored ship, the Atrox - but I think we can look at Carriers and compare them to Sci ships to see which one of the two has been completely overshadowed by the other.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
06-18-2012, 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
PvPers have some legitimate complaints, but those complaints shouldn't be aimed specifically at this ship or its one hangar bay.

Here's the compounded issue:

1) Carrier Pet design & implementation with regards to PvP.
2) Spam: both a UI/lag issue as well as pets spamming specific powers which either have no counter (chrontion proc - no counter, phaser proc - I believe no counter, subsys repair used to help but I don't believe it's working) or are extremely difficult (if not imposible) to counter en masse (pet spammed tractor beams).
3) Flight Deck Officer Hangar rech reduction.



As for the ship itself it has a similar build as the MVAE with regards to BOFFs, swapping out Sci Lt Comm for Eng Lt Comm.

Every other C-store, T5 Escort also has 2 bonus features - just as this one does.


While the OP seems to think Carriers lose turn rate to be carriers, in reality they lose turn rate for a number of things.

The Atrox for example as a massive cruiser-like hull (approx 40K base) combined with Sci ship shielding (1.2 Modifier - higher than any Cruiser available, including the Odyssey Class), 4 Device Slots (vs. 3 for standard Sci ships) and a unique BOFF layout that grants 2 Lt Commander stations in addition to a Commander Station which trades out the relatively low value extra ensign boff slot (1 power) for an additional high value Lt Commander Slot (1 power).


The OP would like to point at the Armitage and insinuate it needs a nerf in comparison to his own favored ship, the Atrox - but I think we can look at Carriers and compare them to Sci ships to see which one of the two has been completely overshadowed by the other.
I agree regarding the general PvP issues of pet spam and their debuffing (across both factions and various debuffs). I also agree generaly C-Store ships have been in general better than non-C-Store ships w/little costs (even less since season 5 and the addition of console slots previously not included).

But, not all bonuses are equal and not all have eqaul amounts of costs. The B'rel vs BoP for example. The B'rel gets a small turnrate boost, and EBC vs BC (a solid buff). But, it loses a ton of hull (21k starting) from a ships (BoP) that didnt have much to begin with. This makes it arguably the least boosted C-Store ship of its tier.

Imo, the comparisons should be between the Fleet Escort and the C-Store escorts. The fleet escort being the baseline. In this case the Akira gets more crew (helps repair subsystems w/Power Insulators) which is all in all minor. Swaps Lt Eng for Lt Comm Tac depending on role & playstyle this could be a buff or a nerf (for me it has the potential to be a huge buff). Adds a hangar bay (huge buff based on OP pets). There maybe other changes, I just don't know the ships well enough. But, it's a better start imo then comparing it to other C-Store ships directly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
06-18-2012, 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless
I've wondered this about the Jem'Hadar ship, at least in comparison to other escorts. What does it lose against others, really?
Science.


Yes I know big loss
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
06-18-2012, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacifica-
This T5 Akira is not totally Overpowered, the Hull is quite weak as with other Escorts... and does not have much in the way of support for Science and Engineering officers to keep her afloat... But in the right hands she can can be a very potent weapon and kept alive
She's an T5.1 escort with a Lt.Cmdr Eng. and a Lt. Sci station. What more would you need?

I can think of countless builds making for a durable "cruiser" vessel, still with the firepower of 3x DHC and CRF III & APA III and/or APO/D/B.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
06-18-2012, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
You're missing quite a few things


Odyssey Science Cruiser (and other Odyssey Cruisers) vs. Other T5 Cuisers

1) 42K Hull vs. 39 or 40K hull (STO wiki lists 40K, web based C-store lists 39K - I'm not sure which is accurate, I'll need to confirm when I can get in game).

2) 1.1 Shield Modifier vs. standard Cruiser Shield mod of 1. The Tactical and Operations Odyssey Cruisers actually have 1.15 Shield Mods - compare vs. Sci Ship mod of 1.2.

3) 10 available Console slots vs. standard, across all ships in the game, 9 console slots.

4) Advanced Quantum Slipstream Drive (granted to all Odyssey Class Cruisers), as a convenience feature.

5) Console (Work Bees, Chevron Separation, Aquarius Escort) - roughly even with other C-store ships, but the Odyssey class Cruisers get a special console in addition to everything else.

6) Lt Commander Universal Station & Ensign Universal Station - available only to Odyssey class cruisers vs. all other Cruisers.

7) The Ody Sci Cruiser also gets Sensor Analysis.
Hm.. all true.

Quote:
You also didn't address that both the Defiant-R and MVAE each get 2 bonus features, just as the Armitage gets 2 bonus features.

If you want to claim that some bonus features are more important than others that's fine, [...].
I don't. It was agenuine question. Thanks for this complete answer. ^^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
06-18-2012, 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
But, not all bonuses are equal and not all have eqaul amounts of costs.
Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
The B'rel vs BoP for example. The B'rel gets a small turnrate boost, and EBC vs BC (a solid buff). But, it loses a ton of hull (21k starting) from a ships (BoP) that didnt have much to begin with. This makes it arguably the least boosted C-Store ship of its tier.
Again, agreed.

I'm not sure what the design concept was at the time, my gut reaction is that the devs thought the ship needed are large penalty for the benefits of EBC. Whether that was worth it at the time is iffy at best, and the B'rel remains on the fairly extreme end of glass cannon style play.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
Imo, the comparisons should be between the Fleet Escort and the C-Store escorts. The fleet escort being the baseline.
Well, i think we can all agree that ships people have to pay C-points for, and that you can only unlock at L50/VA were pretty much destined to be better than free/dilithium ships that you unlock at L40.

What's interesting is that you can, and people still do and will, fly a L40RA unlocked ship at endgame and really not be far behind, or even behind at all.

The Torpedo PDS is a nice toy at best, with a massive downtime - just like the Phaser Lance, original PDS, etc.

The Hangar bay is again, a nice perk (for PvE) and the main issue with it is the spam factor currently problematic in PvP.


The ship itself however really is not OP, and I think once the "new shiny" effect wears off, people will wonder what all of the fuss was about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
06-18-2012, 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Ultimatum
... Snip ...

Well, i think we can all agree that ships people have to pay C-points for, and that you can only unlock at L50/VA were pretty much destined to be better than free/dilithium ships that you unlock at L40.

What's interesting is that you can, and people still do and will, fly a L40RA unlocked ship at endgame and really not be far behind, or even behind at all.

The Torpedo PDS is a nice toy at best, with a massive downtime - just like the Phaser Lance, original PDS, etc.

The Hangar bay is again, a nice perk (for PvE) and the main issue with it is the spam factor currently problematic in PvP.


The ship itself however really is not OP, and I think once the "new shiny" effect wears off, people will wonder what all of the fuss was about.
Actually at first the C-Store ships/VA unlocks were pubically stated to NOT be better by design by the Devs at the time of their releases (though later they did admit they designed them that way). This was well before F2P and consoles being moveable to otherships or stackable etc. The Grade 4 ships are the common baseline (or parents) before the various branching at Grade 5. It's why it's better imo to see how the various ships evolved, if you will, from the common frame of reference or parent.

The benefits of the hangar bay which is part of the ship are dependent on what can go in them. At this time they're very usefull in both PvE & PvP though some pets may benefit one area more than the other.

Further, there's no other Escort which can use CRF3 and DEM2 and have 4 DHCS, 3 Turrets, 4 Tac consoles. Or EPTS3 for shield hardening. Or ET3/Aux2sif2 for hull. Or EWP for CC. It can still use BO/HYT builds, or CRF/HYT, or CRF/BO builds in tac. With tech doffs it can use aux2batt to reduce the cooldowns of all the powers. Imo, the boff layout is better then most other options the Fed Escorts have for Tacs. Note: I'm not counting lotto ships which are a whole other can of worms.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
06-18-2012, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
.<SNIP>

Further, there's no other Escort which can use CRF3 and DEM2 and have 4 DHCS, 3 Turrets, 4 Tac consoles.

<SNIP>
I just want some clarification here. What do you mean when you say no other Escort can have 4 Dual Heavies and 3 Turrets, and 4 Tac Consoles, or use CRF3? I'm asking because before I used the Armitage, I was bouncing back and forth between the Sao Paulo, and Fleet Escort, and both could do all of those...
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