Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 995
# 11
06-21-2012, 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starkofthenorth View Post
I can think of at least two games that are the exception to your argument.

Batman: Arckam City
A beautifully crafted action/adventure in a wide open word.

The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings
Yes, it suffered from a temporary DRM limitation it was the only game in recent memory to get a complete overhaul or enhanced addition to include new content, voice over, and music at NO COST to those who already purchased the release copy.


The Future is not as bleak as you may think it is. Yes companies look for ways to protect their property from online piracy but I do not believe that it is the end of quality games.

I challenge you to look for other quality games out there.
lol batman sucks tho the graphics are nice.

i got most enjoyment from games in the 80s 90s i was nuts over command and conqure red alert

be nice if westwood/EA would remake it with a few more missions and uptodate graphics without all the anit-priacry poop
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 281
# 12
06-21-2012, 07:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starkofthenorth View Post
I can think of at least two games that are the exception to your argument.

Batman: Arckam City
A beautifully crafted action/adventure in a wide open word.

The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings
Yes, it suffered from a temporary DRM limitation it was the only game in recent memory to get a complete overhaul or enhanced addition to include new content, voice over, and music at NO COST to those who already purchased the release copy.
Hmmm, those were good. Arkham has a reasonable amount of DLC, but I'm gonna wait to see how the prices look after a few months before I declare a verdict. If the DLC prices don't change, boo.

Witcher 2 was DRM-free depending on where you got it. GOG.com is DRM-free all the time. Excellent company and game. Good example.

The occasional Humble Bundles are cool, too.
I miss my _.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 573
# 13
06-21-2012, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelispissedoff View Post
To be sure slowly year by year the death of an actually well crafted artistically inspired video game is drying up. Broken DRMs, Incomplete Games, DLC, Internet Requirement, Multiplayer. What this is doing is making great games slowly get worse and worse.

Graphical Nightmare
At the same time, consumers are demanding the newer, better graphics. I hear all the time 'nice game but those graphics are outdated.' The extra time and money to make that work has to come from somewhere. I agree that there is probably too much effort put into graphics in a lot of cases, but it is consumers demanding it.

Quote:
Downloadable Content
What you seem to be suggesting is that companies should keep writing new content for their games completely at their expense with no recompense. How is that a reasonable demand? If your suggestion of making charging for DLCs illegal was ever implemented all it would mean is no more DLC's. How would you set a legal criteria for 'full expansion' anyway?

Quote:
Broken DRM & Internet Requirement
The requirement exists because the internet exists. Software piracy is a real issue. If you don't believe me consider that you not just aren't willing to pay for a DLC but you seem to think that charging for them should be illegal. If you don't put in some sort of anti theft measures to protect your property, expect to be robbed blind.

Quote:
Incomplete Games
One game rings loudly and repeatedly, The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim.
What makes this a new issue? This is as old as computing. DOS 4 was so bad, even Microsoft advised people to go back to DOS 3 if they didn't have DOS 5. There is no shortage of other examples.

While in this case I agree it is reasonable to expect a game to work right out of the box, this has been an issue since the beginning of computing.

Quote:
Massive Multiplayer Online
Truly there are several categories of online game, however only two types really need mentioning. Free to Play (what cryptic recently became back in january) and Pay to play (what cryptic stopped being in december). I am only going to target pay to play. This should be constitutionally illegal.
Again, you seem to feel that you should have some sort of constitutional right to require a company to let you play a multiplayer game in perpetuity. Those fees go to things like maintaining servers and keeping them (and thus the game) from being hacked. Why should a company be required to keep its doors open to provide you services above and beyond writing you the game in the first place?

Just because you don't seen the extra work doesn't mean it isn't there or isn't necessary.

If you don't want to pay the support cost of the 'massive' aspect of 'massively multiplayer' games, don't buy them or play them in the first place.

Most of your post comes down to an apparent insistence on your part that others should give things up for you. Either other players should give up on better graphics, or game companies should give up profits and/or lose money to subsidize your play.

In short, if gaming is indeed dying as you suggest, it is because of unrealistic expectations on the part of consumers...... which coincidentally what is killing the entire economy.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16
# 14
06-21-2012, 11:21 AM
I'll skip the quotes part and just slam into this. Kimmera this is all to you

Graphics
I cannot argue with the consumers either. I am one of them and I want my graphics to be bigger better more realistic and jaw dropping. What I dislike though is that to make room for these graphics their taking the time away from the games story or worse the controls. Some controls for games are just absolutely rubbish.

DLC
You're slightly misunderstanding me here which I'll try to alleviate. I referenced Mass Effect 3 as an example so I'll use it. The very day the game came out there were several DLCs. Pre-order goodies and the like to get people to spend more money to get special new toys. An in-game hoodie for your shepard to wear. These things were all fluff that were given away with the "Special Edition" or whatever. HOWEVER, they also released a companion NPC with this (AND) the files were already included in the game. Then slow releases of more DLC before the first Expansion pack comes in. What I am saying here is that those DLC should be included in the game already OR included in the Expansion Pack. And as Expansion Packs do cost money...

An expansion pack can range from several levels. We get the high level expansion like StarCraft Broodwar which is pretty much a brand new game worth of content. The mid level expansion which is like The Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion Shivering Isles. Still a fairly lengthy piece all to itself. And the Lower range expansion like Knights of the Nine for Oblivion. Not much new content to be perfectly honest. Three levels of content and to be fair if Knights of the Nine had the DLC included that Bethesda had released before it, it would still have been reasonably priced for it and would have had much closer content level to Shivering Isles. Not only that but it would encourage gaming companies to work on hard driven better content then just saying "Oh we designed a box that fits into a box that you get in this game".

DRM
Anti theft measures are perfectly fine, I was perfectly happy back in the days of needing to enter ######-######-#####-####-######. All this internet business does is ruin gaming. Even for people who purchase games legitimately there is serious problems that do exist. Like I said with Assassins Creed II a lot of people found that playing it with a legitimate copy was so bad that they grabbed the cracks just to be able to play it. Not only that but what if you are unable to pay your internet bill and go without, well then sorry you just aren't going to be able to play our game. By the way fun little tidbit. Several years ago, the xbox 360 was already hacked so to speak and there are people out there now able to play pirated games and not only that, they could rent a game from a place download the entire game onto their xbox and return the game. And continue to play that game. Yet I don't see the same level of protection going into xbox's. Simply put DRM is a great thing but as of now the DRM's are broken and just a huge hindrance to people who actually legitimately buy games.

Incomplete Games
skipping cause we agreed and no misunderstandings

Massive Multiplayer Online
I really don't have anything to add to this. I am not a huge fan of online games. The only current online game I play right now is this one (which I purchased, and subscribed to). I have also done repeated beta testing for several rather big named MMOs. Star Craft is a great example though. It has never had a monthly subscription. Not only that but it's online game play has been to be perfectly honest running far longer then any other online game out there that I can think of. It came out back in 1998, that's 14 years while staying freely online.


Skipping to the end. I am not insisting that others give up on anything, I am insisting that gaming companies earn their profits and stop giving the consumers the short end of the stick. These are nowhere near unrealistic expectations either. When I purchase a car it's perfectly reasonable to expect the car to have it's engine and working breaks. I don't expect game companies like Piranha Bytes to make a beautiful game with enriched story working features and controls that actually do what their supposed to. But from a big name game developer I want what I pay for.

EDIT: Checking spelling.. 10:30am and no sleep sorry :p

EDIT 2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajstoner View Post
Another item that you have not mentioned here is the marginalization of the modder. I have been modding games since the mid 90's. I started with an old Mac shareware game called Escape Velocity and later the Total War games by CA. My Medieval II TW mod, "Rule Britannia," just hit 30,000 downloads so I have some experience here.

There was a time, back when game companies were run by designers, that they loved the modders who kept their games alive years after they came out. Today they go out of there way to prevent it by making their code inaccessible and pushing the attack on sites that host them. The idea, I guess, is that it cuts into their profits by making people go elsewhere for new content. In fairness there is some truth to this as the downloadable content they offer is almost invariably garbage.

There was a time when I pre-ordered everything CA put out. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever by a game with their logo on it again. When the hidious and bug-ridden "Empire Total War" came out their lead designer actually said (complete with attached "lol")on his own website that he threw his free copies away when he got them the game was so awful. This, of course, was exactly what those of us who coughed up $80 for that abomination wanted to hear.

Art has been replaced with advertisement, culture with commercialism. Look what happened to painting after that worthless loser Andy Warhol came on the scene. What was the last movie you paid to see without feel robbed? Once there was Janis Joplin--today there is Lady GaGa; a twit so useless she makes Madonna look talented.

Suits poison everything they touch.
I'm sorry I had completely forgotten to read the last couple posts on the first page. You know what, in all honesty I think I actually used that mod for my Medieval 2. In fact the last actual decent Total War game imo that was released was indeed Medieval 2. I just loved that the scenarios dates lasted for so blitheringly long. I don't think I really ever completed an actual long scenario. I'd get 200 years in and think.. Alright it's time to play another faction. And even then I still loved it. Playing out how I felt my rulers family would play out. Which son would run off to the crusades while the other stays home trying to get daddy to make him heir. The political marriages. It's only fault was that you couldn't set who you wanted to be heir (Apart from putting the current heir in an army alone and making him die). With the coming of Empire total war it just felt like they decided "You know what, lets just strip the game down to bare essentials, Build armies, march them to war and repeat. I just couldn't find myself growing attached to the generals because if they died I could just purchase a new one right off the bat. Then out comes Shogun 2 Total War which I can't fully enjoy either. The time span is so limited and short that I can't actually get my Daimyo's family kicking off. You literally have 16 years to win or it's loss. I like to take the long slow road and have mine last 500 years or equivalent.

And somebody mentioned the Witcher 2 earlier. Those guys are actually fantastic game designers. They released a well wrote story that took time to beat. Had beautiful graphics and on top of this. They freely allow players to use their hard work free of charge for mods. One of the hottest Skyrim outfit mods happens to be Witcher 2 armor.

Last edited by baelispissedoff; 06-21-2012 at 01:04 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 573
# 15
06-21-2012, 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelispissedoff View Post
I'll skip the quotes part and just slam into this. Kimmera this is all to you

Graphics
I cannot argue with the consumers either. I am one of them and I want my graphics to be bigger better more realistic and jaw dropping. What I dislike though is that to make room for these graphics their taking the time away from the games story or worse the controls. Some controls for games are just absolutely rubbish.
The controls of course shouldn't be rubbish, however that is independent of the graphics. Again, you get what you pay for. As for story, it is much more often that trying to decide the target audience is what takes away from story.

Quote:
DLC
You're slightly misunderstanding me here which I'll try to alleviate. I referenced Mass Effect 3 as an example so I'll use it. The very day the game came out there were several DLCs. Pre-order goodies and the like to get people to spend more money to get special new toys. An in-game hoodie for your shepard to wear. These things were all fluff that were given away with the "Special Edition" or whatever. HOWEVER, they also released a companion NPC with this (AND) the files were already included in the game. Then slow releases of more DLC before the first Expansion pack comes in. What I am saying here is that those DLC should be included in the game already OR included in the Expansion Pack. And as Expansion Packs do cost money...
Yes expansion packs cost money. What you are asking for, though, is less choice. You would rather everyone have to buy one larger expansion pack, whether they want everything in it or not. Mostly, though, I suspect you are convinced that you should be getting a bulk discount regardless of the actual production costs (hence your suggestion that if they additional features are not included in an expansion, they should be free with the original game). Either way, you are asking for either more expensive bundles or free stuff.

Quote:
An expansion pack can range from several levels. We get the high level expansion like StarCraft Broodwar which is pretty much a brand new game worth of content. The mid level expansion which is like The Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion Shivering Isles. Still a fairly lengthy piece all to itself. And the Lower range expansion like Knights of the Nine for Oblivion. Not much new content to be perfectly honest. Three levels of content and to be fair if Knights of the Nine had the DLC included that Bethesda had released before it, it would still have been reasonably priced for it and would have had much closer content level to Shivering Isles. Not only that but it would encourage gaming companies to work on hard driven better content then just saying "Oh we designed a box that fits into a box that you get in this game".
How do you get to decide what is 'reasonably priced' for everyone else, despite not being the writer nor in any way the owner of the IP?

These are luxury products. If you don't think it is reasonably priced, don't buy it. What about these makes them some sort of necessity to be regulated? Knights of the Nine was actually seen as one of the first microtransaction implementations. It was also done when coding was simpler, graphics were simpler and thus production costs were lower.

Quote:
DRM
Anti theft measures are perfectly fine, I was perfectly happy back in the days of needing to enter ######-######-#####-####-######. All this internet business does is ruin gaming.
How does it 'ruin gaming?' First of all, most if not all games played through Steam can be run with steam in offline mode. Second, the problem with the ###### scheme is if someone enters a valid number not theirs, they have suddenly potentially mucked it up for someone else. If the system does not keep track of which serial numbers have been claimed, then the hacker only needs to figure out the system and they can produce all the codes they want. Piracy not averted. And how does it hamper play in any way? Ifs not like the game stops you every hour or so to get you to re-log in or something.

Quote:
Massive Multiplayer Online
I really don't have anything to add to this. I am not a huge fan of online games. The only current online game I play right now is this one (which I purchased, and subscribed to). I have also done repeated beta testing for several rather big named MMOs. Star Craft is a great example though. It has never had a monthly subscription. Not only that but it's online game play has been to be perfectly honest running far longer then any other online game out there that I can think of. It came out back in 1998, that's 14 years while staying freely online.
Starcraft is not an MMO in the proper sense, even though it may seem to conform to that. Any given instance has very few in it, not hundreds to thousands simultaneously. An RTS is not considered an MMO. It also is relatively simple and thus is dealing with rather a lot less data.

What you are saying is essentially "How come the payments on my little economy car are less than those on my top end sports car? They are both cars, they should cost the same!"

Quote:
Skipping to the end. I am not insisting that others give up on anything, I am insisting that gaming companies earn their profits and stop giving the consumers the short end of the stick. These are nowhere near unrealistic expectations either. When I purchase a car it's perfectly reasonable to expect the car to have it's engine and working breaks. I don't expect game companies like Piranha Bytes to make a beautiful game with enriched story working features and controls that actually do what their supposed to. But from a big name game developer I want what I pay for.
You are defining 'fair profits' as fair to you, irrespective of whether that is profitable to the gaming companies and irrespective of the simple fact you are not obligated to purchase in the first place.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,268
# 16
06-21-2012, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starkofthenorth View Post
I can think of at least two games that are the exception to your argument.

Batman: Arckam City
A beautifully crafted action/adventure in a wide open word.

The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings
Yes, it suffered from a temporary DRM limitation it was the only game in recent memory to get a complete overhaul or enhanced addition to include new content, voice over, and music at NO COST to those who already purchased the release copy.


The Future is not as bleak as you may think it is. Yes companies look for ways to protect their property from online piracy but I do not believe that it is the end of quality games.

I challenge you to look for other quality games out there.
I agree with the 2 games mentioned, but... Its getting harder to find great games. Mass Effect 3 was a bitter disappointment which was preceded by that abomination that was Dragon Age 2 (you wonder why no more DLC was released after a certain one). Then we have Call of Duty and Battlefield 2 of the most mediocre games ever to grace us gamers. We have Madden and its yearly decreasing value in quality, most sports games follow that route.

3-4 years ago this was not the case you had Metal Gear Solid 4 (Solid Snakes Swan song.), Infamous (the original), Dragon Age Origins, Wrath of the lich king, etc.

Now a days you have Resident Evil slipping in quality again, Final Fantasy, most EA games, I hate to say it but it is the rise of the CASUAL GAMER that is killing the industry. They will buy those games and rave about them but the rest of us are stuck with breezing past them with god like ease. (see Fable 2 and 3, and the Halo series). The problem is that these talentless hacks can't play a REAL Game to save their life and back down from a challenging game in an instant.(see Demon Souls and Dark Souls). This is actually the public becoming so inherently lazy that they don't wanna bust their hump or challenge themselves.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 281
# 17
06-21-2012, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelispissedoff View Post
To be sure slowly year by year the death of an actually well crafted artistically inspired video game is drying up. Broken DRMs, Incomplete Games, DLC, Internet Requirement, Multiplayer. What this is doing is making great games slowly get worse and worse.

Graphical Nightmare
A lot of gaming companies are falling into this department. They are thinking that a beautifully designed gaming machine with life like people and emotions and weather and basically the entire game world. Most of us can't argue that these are indeed fantastically beautiful worlds. However the downside is that they are taking the development time from other aspects of the game to strengthen the graphics. These are being taken from game mechanics such as controls to the story of the game and the length of the game. Not only are they going for perfection of visuals but some games are actually going too far. Mirror's Edge which is a beautifully crafted game world also has the annoying problem of blinding you by sheer brightness.

Downloadable Content
I have always absolutely hated the thing that is called DLC. It pretends that it is an expansion pack, adding some features into a game, maybe a new armor or weapon. Costume pack or map all very much depending on what type of game it is. One of the best ridiculous examples of this I find would be from Mass Effect 3. On the very same day of the games release there was a DLC released that you had to purchase. Yes you heard that correctly. Not only was it first day released DLC but some very intelligent people were looking in the original games files and actually found the Prothean character was fully scripted into the game already albeit not the personal quest of his. Other games go around tossing countless DLC out that to be quiet frank is so insignificantly small it is complete lunacy and should be illegal to even charge money for it. The other flipside to this however is the Expansion Pack. One of the earliest expansions to a game I can remember is Star Craft Brood War. It wasn't even truly an expansion either. It was more a completely brand new sequel game. Running off the same engine with adding new features and things as well as taking place in even new areas or expanded areas. These truly are worthwhile to gaming. Not only that but to actually charge for these is perfectly acceptable, as they are practically a brand new game. Some expansions I have come acrossed don't even require the original game to be installed to play them. Truly the correct way for game developers to go is the expansion pack. Not useless DLC that adds a "weapon" for $2.99 but an entire huge overhaul addition to a game running at least half the price brand new.

Broken DRM & Internet Requirement
Another extremely serious problem is the so called "Security" features for games. This is 100% accurate, Assassin's Creed 2 developed by Ubisoft had one of the greatest anti piracy software on it's release. It not only required online activation to play the game but it also required you to connect to Ubisoft's servers to download the next mission while the previous mission got deleted. This was creative, very well thought up and ultimately failed within a week or so of the games release. Not only that but it greatly hindered the players who actually purchased the game. Now they not only were required to keep a live internet connection through the entire play through of a single player game. But there was also severe troubles even getting the game to run properly and stay that way. It was so problematic in-fact that once it did get cracked a lot of paying customers used that just so they didn't have to put up with all that garbage. Barring the poor souls who bought it for a console. Now lets also not forget the other side to that. A single player game should never require an internet connection unless you are actively grabbing the latest patch. All the internet requirement does is limit players who are just after an enjoyable single player game.

Incomplete Games
One game rings loudly and repeatedly, The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim. Straight out of the box when I got this game I couldn't wait to install it. Oblivion is one of my all time favorite games simply by how vast and beautiful it was. Just to stick with the main mission though proved to be impossible to do. a Few missions into the main storyline and you're instantly stopped by a game breaking bug. The character you are supposed to speak to is silent. Not only is he silent but with subtitles on you see his speech flashing by at neck breaking speeds. Unable to complete the main quest simply because you can't get inside his room and therefor that's it. Luckily there is only one fix to this. It wasn't done by Bethesda either. Just recently in the last week or two I reinstalled the game and fully patched it up (1.5) and low and behold that game breaking bug still exists in the game. So many games now a days are just getting thrown out there basically held together by elastic tape. Clearly the beta testing was cut short and they are thrown out into the wind. In the case of Skyrim however you should be lucky that the Nexus(modding community) exists with their roll of ducktape all setup and ready to fix Bethesda's mistakes and get a working game.

Massive Multiplayer Online
Truly there are several categories of online game, however only two types really need mentioning. Free to Play (what cryptic recently became back in january) and Pay to play (what cryptic stopped being in december). I am only going to target pay to play. This should be constitutionally illegal. You go out and buy a game, only to be forced into paying a monthly SUBSCRIPTION to play the game. I have found it incredibly and morally wrong to charge players to play a game that they have already purchased. Not only is this annoying but single player franchise companies are trying to capture on this and create multiplayer versions of their single player games. Star Wars the Old Republic comes to mind. I am pretty sure that there are a ton of fans who have been sitting and waiting for a knights of the old republic 3 to come out, and what does bioware give us? An online game that after you buy it you have to pay for.
You should try monopoly.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16
# 18
06-22-2012, 01:07 AM
And what I paid for was a game. Not a work in progress.

Getting a bulk discount? Are you actually hearing yourself? Gaming companies are actually going and stripping content from games to include in DLC purposefully to make more money. They release countless micro DLC's because they don't really care about the consumer in the slightest, they just care about their wallets. They spend all this time releasing this DLC here and that DLC there to make the quick buck that they are completely skipping out going with something like an expansion pack. Expansion packs are most likely where they'll be getting most of their money actually. Because people actually will want an expansion.



How do I get to decide on reasonably priced? Because I have a brain unlike the US government and I can judge what can sell. Not only that but you can actually go and check the prices of things in stores and see how much they have been selling of units. This isn't a new concept, it's how they determine best sellers. Not only that but I did not actually say any prices, I just said "REASONABLY PRICED". Honestly now you are just arguing for arguments sake and you sound like you like to throw your money away at companies who treat you like dirt and delivery broken technology back in return.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16
# 19
06-22-2012, 03:57 AM
Sorry for the double post... But what the.... The post just before this one by me... Is not what I originally posted. I made no reference to the US Gov't at all when I typed it out and I saved the original.. I think there is a moderator on here that is wishing to have a joke or something..

Anyways with whatever did happen to it. I had said that a reasonably priced game and expansion can simply be discovered by a trip to a game store or website. Your typical low level expansion is around $15-20 with your high end ones going for $60-70 (the price of a new game. But to be fair the high end typically involves enough content to be a new game in itself).
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