Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 627
# 11
06-23-2012, 02:18 PM
I've seen the optional completed in several mixes of classes/ships....

I've done CSE with the optional with 5 Cruisers...

Never seen a tactical cube drop faster than with 5 science ships..

Destroyed Donatra in an all Carrier group in KASE before she even had time to cloak once....

There is no perfect setup of classes and ships... its the pilot
I'll stop kicking that horse when the bugs fixed. Until then as a paying consumer, I will voice my opinion.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 23
# 12
06-23-2012, 02:29 PM
@abcde123123
I'm saying escorts are by far optimal, and everything else sub-optimal. Other ships are great fun, which is precisely why I want the STF balance issues addressed, so all ship and captain types are useful.

Although, you do have a point on bortases, since they really can pump out escort like damage in PvE (extra weapon slot, dual cannons, extra tactical console, and disruptor autocannon). They're completely different to any federation cruiser though. Plus, building a cruiser as an escort and then saying, "look, you have variety!" is just...well, misleading, don't you think?

@sollvax
No offence, but if you think 5 competent escorts won't be perfectly fine without a cruiser/sci ship, then you don't really know what you're talking about. EPtSx2 (cycled), keeping moving when being shot at, and HE/TSS with cross healing is more than enough to avoid deaths.

@marc8219
What build are you using for your defiant? My tac/defiant does way more damage than any cruiser build I've ever made (including the same toon in a lucky ferengi ship I got)?

Klingon cruisers with DC/DHCs can definitely do good DPS in STFs, since mobility isn't really a factor, but the main way they lose out is on those AP:Betas which add SOOO much damage.

For example: Five escorts doing equal DPS. None of them using FOMM or AP:Beta. One of them uses AP:B3. Adds 50% DPS to everyone - effectively does 3 and a half times as much damage, nearly as much as the rest of the team combined.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,888
# 13
06-23-2012, 02:43 PM
Im not saying a cruiser does more sustained DPS then my Defiant, but maybe my Voquv carrier using Brothl BOP refit does, I need to test it though.

My Defiant build

3x Mk XII AP DHC [Borg] 1x Mk XII Quantum [Borg]
4x Mk XII AP turrets [Borg]

4x Mk XI rare tac console

CMDR Tac- TT1 THY2 CSV2 CRF3
LTC Tac TT1 APB APO
Ensign Tac TS1

Lt Eng EPTS1 EPTS2

Lt Sci HE1 TSS2
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 23
# 14
06-23-2012, 03:22 PM
You'd get a *lot* more damage (as would your team mates) running AP:B3/2. Plus if you use torpedo doffs, you can boost your DPS a lot by spamming photons (one torpedo, no buffs on it, and it does like 40% of my DPS sometimes, because of how fast they spam; one per second hitting the large HP unshielded targets in STFs is killer). STFs as they are are very much about the sustained DPS vs hull rather than spike damage.

The fact that it's silly to run anything other than AP:B3/B2 is something shifting the focus to shields would help with too (particularly as it's annoying to have to have completely different setups for PvE and PvE, but I guess that's to encourage buying BOff slots).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,888
# 15
06-23-2012, 03:25 PM
I use 3 purple projectile duty officers, my torp seems to fire a lot, but ill try compare it with a photon and see how it does.

I could try switching the APB1 and CSV2 around to APB2 and CSV1, but I am hesitant to give up my main spike damage skill CRF3 to get APB3, especially since I have no extra Boff slots and APB pvp usefulness is limited, so i like to try make this build for PVE/PVP without needing to switch BOFF out.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 16
06-23-2012, 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captgriffen View Post
Right now, there really is zero reason to run anything other than an escort in an STF. Specifically, a tac/escort. You'll very rarely die (pretty much never in a decent team now they fixed the critting torpedoes on one shot doom Negh'vars had), and do the most DPS possible to make the optionals and finish.
In all MMOs, there are forum braggarts with exagerated claims like "I never die <glass cannon class>" or "my <tank> class outparses the DDs" or "my <buff/debuff class> can outheal the pure Healers".

I fly all ship types, I believe my Escort build to be rather good and I explode frequently in Elite STFs.
EPTS, High-Aux HE/TSS/AuxToSIF, purple DOFFs (a Shield Distribution or Warp Core Engineer proc can be very nice for survival), Borg set procs, MACO XII Shields&Deflector, the Subspace Field Modulator... it still doesn't take long to be forced to flee or die.

Can I tank a Gate or Tac Cube from 100% to 0%? Yes, if the group's DPS is very good and/or I get lucky with the aforementionned procs.
But certainly not consistently.

Quote:
Cruisers are pretty useless as well. Less damage, and the extra healing capability doesn't help because escort can already cross heal enough (assuming no one is derp derp and not using 2xEPtS). As for cruiser tankiness, cruisers have a nice advantage in hull tanking, but for shield tanking, they aren't that much better as the extra defence score of escorts reduces damage by a lot (I assume because the borg have awful accuracy - going from say 40% hitting to 30% hitting is only 10% more defence, but 25% damage reduction, which with healing might give three times the survival time).
Funny how often Escort Defense is brought up on the forums, given that:
1. ALL ships can get the same Defense. As long as you get 24+ movement Speed (easy on any ship type), you max Defense from Speed and the only ways to add more are Elusive, Aegis bonuses and points in Maneuvers (and a fortiori Reman Engines); all of which are availlable to all Ship types.
Escorts do have a Speed Bonus (.2 Impulse Modifier, most other Ships have .15), but it's complete overkill as far as Defense is concerned.

2. You don't have high Defense on an Escort in STFs.
Unless you just fly at the target at 24+ Speed, then away, turn around and repeat?
In that case, I understand why you don't die. By cutting your DPS roughly in half (since you have your back turned half the time), you're not outparsing the good Cruisers.
You might think your awesome Defense saves you when, in fact, you're just not being fired at.

Quote:
But hey, cruisers can make it up in the hull tanking right? No. They can't, because the borg torpedoes are pumped up hard to be able to punch straight through shields, which means on hull, even for a cruiser, it's likely to be a one hit kill.
Not true. I get quite careless on my Bortas when a Torpedo is incoming (on my Escort or SV, I shoot it down ASAP) because they very rarely one-shot me.



As for your fixes: they wouldn't work.
Cryptic has already tried to nerf Escort to get Cruisers to tank and SVs to heal, that's what the stacking death penalty was about... do more Cruisers tank now? Do more SVs heal? Not that I noticed.
We need a mentallity shift: the problem lies in that everyone is DPS-obsessed, regardless of Ship. Obviously, if everyone wants to DD, the DD class dominates.
A SV captain shouldn't care that much about DPS, just crowd control, debuffs and healing.
A Cruiser captain shouldn't laugh at his teammates dying while he's avoiding fire from anything dangerous but should instead make sure fire is concentrated on him.

Last edited by quiscustodiet; 06-23-2012 at 03:42 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 23
# 17
06-23-2012, 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
I use 3 purple projectile duty officers, my torp seems to fire a lot, but ill try compare it with a photon and see how it does.
Quite a lot of difference, due to the reduction from the boff (6 to 1 second instead of 8 to 3), combined with the 1k bonus damage (which doesn't work against all enemies, mainly seemed to be klingon borg last time I checked, I should recheck that and make a thread on it).

Sadly seems to be some issues with torpedoes not autofiring properly/very slowly, which is rather annoying at times.

Quote:
I could try switching the APB1 and CSV2 around to APB2 and CSV1, but I am hesitant to give up my main spike damage skill CRF3 to get APB3, especially since I have no extra Boff slots and APB pvp usefulness is limited, so i like to try make this build for PVE/PVP without needing to switch BOFF out.
It does add a lot of damage from PvE, but if you do really any PvE and don't want to change, I'd say setup for PvP. PvE's relatively easy.

---------------------------------------

Quote:
I fly all ship types, I believe my Escort build to be rather good and I explode frequently in Elite STFs.
EPTS, High-Aux HE/TSS/AuxToSIF, purple DOFFs (a Shield Distribution or Warp Core Engineer proc can be very nice for survival), Borg set procs, MACO XII Shields&Deflector, the Subspace Field Modulator... it still doesn't take long to be forced to flee or die.
Do you keep moving when under fire? Do you avoid cubes' torpedo arcs (either above or below is easiest)? It's not just about build.

Quote:
Can I tank a Gate or Tac Cube from 100% to 0%? Yes, if the group's DPS is very good and/or I get lucky with the aforementionned procs.
But certainly not consistently.
Tac cube can be tough to tank as a tac/escort, they'll eventually wear you down (eng/escort though can tank it indefinitely). Five escorts that cross heal is a totally different story (ie: if the other players are competent and paying attention).

Why are you tanking a gateway though? There's very little need to.

Quote:
Funny how often Escort Defense is brought up on the forums, given that:
1. ALL ships can get the same Defense
I think you'll find escorts have a 10% innate defence bonus, unless they've changed that.

Quote:
2. You don't have high Defense on an Escort in STFs.
Unless you just fly at the target at 24+ Speed, then away, turn around and repeat?
In that case, I understand why you don't die. By cutting your DPS roughly in half (since you have your back turned half the time), you're not outparsing the good Cruisers.
You might think your awesome Defense saves you when, in fact, you're just not being fired at.
I out damage pretty much everyone I've ever combat logged an stf in (unless I was doing something like probe duty).

99% of the time in an STF, you aren't getting shot at, or just rocking back and forth is sufficient to avoid dying.

Of that 1% of the time, some of it is when spheres gang up on you, at which point I can just switch targets between spheres based on who is in my sights - almost no DPS is wasted. The rest is on tactical cubes, and you can maintain high defence while shooting them (just fly on top of them in a circle).

Quote:
Not true. I get quite careless on my Bortas when a Torpedo is incoming (on my Escort or SV, I shoot it down ASAP) because they very rarely one-shot me.
Sure, the hull helps if you have some shields to absorb the spike damage, but enough to offset the innate defence bonus helping with shield tanking and the tactical buffs like AP:B3 that you're giving up on? Bortasq or however you spell it is probably the best cruiser for STFs, because it can do decent damage, but for fed cruisers, definitely not worth it.

Quote:
As for your fixes: they wouldn't work.
Cryptic has already tried to nerf Escort to get Cruisers to tank and SVs to heal, that's what the stacking death penalty was about... do more Cruisers tank now? Do more SVs heal? Not that I noticed.
I'm not really suggesting nerfing escorts but in making the other ship types comparable in effectiveness, and in giving more options for effective builds.

My engineer escort tanks just as well if not better than my engineer cruiser, and does a lot more damage. When I want to tank, I jump in my escort. My changes would fix that. If engineers could tank better, they might start running more boarding parties (particularly with enemies running EptS), aceton beam (since energy weapons not kinetic the key), and maybe even extend shields.

SVs aren't mainly healers, but debuffers. Changing the focus to shields and energy weapons would make power drains more useful. Adding EPtS, shield resistances, and moving the emphasis from hull to shields would make shield stripping useful.

Plus hopefully everyone would heal more if a) they were less worried about spike damage, and b) people didn't die so fast to spike damage, but to more sustained fire.

Quote:
We need a mentallity shift: the problem lies in that everyone is DPS-obsessed, regardless of Ship. Obviously, if everyone wants to DD, the DD class dominates.
A SV captain shouldn't care that much about DPS, just crowd control, debuffs and healing.
A Cruiser captain shouldn't laugh at his teammates dying while he's avoiding fire from anything dangerous but should instead make sure fire is concentrated on him.
I'm curious what you think you're going to achieve by saying, "we need a complete redesign of the STFs". It isn't going to happen. We need to actually be realistic here. People have been complaining about the DPS-fest that STFs are for ages, with nothing to show for it, because it'd take too much resources to fix.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 104
# 18
06-23-2012, 07:07 PM
Quote:
It's not that you can't play anything else and do fine, but that anything else is sadly sub-optimal. I'd like to be able to play different setups without feeling like I'm gimped or letting the team down.
Seriously, this line ties into what I was saying. By saying playing my carrier, or cruiser, I'm being sub-optimal and letting the team down makes my mind click of "If you aren't a tac in an escort, you suck/aren't playing as well as you should/are a disappointment to team"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 194
# 19
06-23-2012, 08:12 PM
I fly a sci FE and a tac qin in STFs. My sci has comparable damage output to other (well built) sci ships and way less than the qin but I don't feel gimped flying it.

I also don't imagine that many tacscorts pack APB:3.

My next one will be an eng Hegh'Ta with a wildly inefficient build
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