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Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3
Don't wanna read the entire thing but wanna answer my question? Nutshell in last paragraph. TL;DR? Scroll to the end.



I bought the Tac Oddy by the skin of my teeth during the sale yesterday. Seriously...1 minute left from 10:00 am PDT deadline. After JUST making the cpoints needed. I was totally thrilled.

I'd been using an assault cruiser until that point with great success so I just transferred my setup over-same build with items, boffs, and power levels.

I really expected a huge increase. The Tac Oddy has the +5 I had from the Assault Cruiser with an additional +5 in weapons. Should have been great. But I found that I was getting pounded in the Tac Oddy. I use Paratrinic Shields with the Borg set and got the maximum capacity of 8798 without any powers and some great damage with 3 DBB and a Mk XII photon torpedo fore and beam arrays aft on the assault cruiser. I didn't have really bad drain with either end firing alone and normal amounts with them together but all this has changed with the move to the Odyssey.

How can I go from Borg not easily cracking my shields on Elite STFs even with a good few seconds of sustained fire all around to shields that go down to half under the first few shots from single Birds of Prey on Elite Cure Space? The difference is HUGE!!!!

I just don't understand what it could be. Some of my energy settings didn't look quite right when I first started but I believe I've tweaked them back to what they were. I run usually with 117-125 on weapons, around 60-70 on shields and the minimum on everything else. I rely on Warp Core Potential.

Maybe Warp Core Potental has been nerfed? Anyone notice that? Or is it that with a VA level ship, I'm now getting stronger NPCs? Does anyone know if NPC damage scales with level or ship rank? I would imagine so. I'm not the only one in the forums with Tac Odyssey issues like this. What's going on?

Last edited by theshadowed1; 07-03-2012 at 09:31 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 658
# 2
07-03-2012, 11:01 PM
I've been using the Odyssey Prototype as the c-store ones weren't much better (not enough to justify the $25 cost).

You should get a survivability benefit from the Odyssey due to the 1.15 shield capacity modifier, however you are going to get hit more as the larger hulls in this game tends to have a lower defence bonus from flight speed.

Also with the lower turn rate you will have difficulty at times swinging shield facings about.

However, these tips allowed me to use the Odyssey Prototype as a successful ESTF ship and semi-successfully in PvP queues: -

1) You're going to get hit more, so get a shield system with resistance to "all" enemy damage. MACO shields work great in STFs for obvious reasons - MACO provides 20% plasma resistance plus 10% additional to all energy.

2) Get as much resistance buffs as you possibly can. Just like how PvP Fleet Escorts do it, they appear to be chaining EPTS and TSS for a very high combined shield damage resistance. Coupled with your shield's natural resistance you can possible take little to no damage at all to shields when under fire in PvP, although in STFs you will still face massive torpedo hits that destroy just about any shield facing it hits. The idea is to survive that first hit and then boost the shield under fire back up to 100% in as short a time as possible. No shields = dead Oddy.

3) Use two Tactical Teams, or 1 TT and 2 Rare Conn Officers.

This is once again a PvP derived tactic posted on the forums a while back (and famously referenced during a "Shield Regen is Nerfed" complaint thread). Cutting your TT recharge time to 15 or 16 seconds means your window of vulnerability is considerably reduced, and you can cover the gap with shield resistance buffs or even the RSP in reserve if need be.

4) Think defensively

Because your huge battleship is going to be a target, it must also be built to tank with all its hitpoints and the 1.15 shield modifier. A Shield Redistribution Officer can be valuable as he can create shield regeneration when taking damage under Brace for Impact. The actual regeneration rate may be modest compared to the usual brute force heals like RSP but in a pinch it might just save you from taking catastrophic hull damage.

Also do use that Aux2SIF3 skill as your Commander Engineering boff power as it gives you a rapid every-15-second combat heal + damage resistance without any global cooldown.

5) Worst case scenarios - torpedo defence system for STFs

Some say, to survive, you need Neutronium Armor and lots of it but have you looked at the cost of the damn things vs small resistance benefits?

It's not cost effective if you can predict the anticipated threats in the mission and spec armor accordingly.

For STFs, I recommend two armor pieces - one Monotanium for +38 kinetic resistance and one Electroceramic for +35 plasma resistance. Stacking Monotanium is not necessary. After the first +38, the second will merely add +10 to actual damage resistance.

Use the rest of your engineering slots for defensive aids like a SIF generator, boost weapon power ,etc.

6) Saber Dance... or Don't Be Afraid to Run

Have you had bad experiences on Ker'rat where you get ganged by 4 KDF destroyers at once and inevitably blow up? The best defence against such scenarios (where your supertanker is helpless) is to not get into them at all. In pre-team or fleet operations you can assign wingmen to do the infantry work while your Odyssey swoops in fast and delivers attack patterns, BO3s, torpedo salvoes while tanking with shield resists and Threat Control.

An Assault cruiser (sovereign) or Excelsior can be made to work in a dogfight as you can bring up their turnrate to nearly 20 degrees per second with Attack Pattern Alpha, Aux2Dampers or even beyond with RCS accelerator consoles.

I don't recommend bothering with RCSA consoles on something as big as the Oddy but if you can max out your straight line combat speed, you find that you can start to dictate the range and use your superior beam power at long range to steadily wear down your enemy or deliver precise crippling hits with BO.

Certain weapon types as I experimented last week, appear to hold their damage over range better than others. Tetryon beams for instance are great at shield stripping but did barely 450 or so damage to a transwarp gate at range 9.9, whereas a phaser does at least 800 (all unbuffed shots) making it a superior choice for damaging things.

Higher than average tactical speed, good flight discipline, and long effective ranges for phaser and quantum torpedo salvoes means that you can stay fast, "Saber dance" like KDF ships in Starfleet Command II PvP did and avoid getting into any compromising positions during the course of an ESTF.

I will only swoop in to do crowd control and these are very disciplined targeted runs intended to affect the tactical positioning of the battle in some way (repulsing spheres 20km away after failed 10% in ISE PUGs for instance). At all other times a 6 beam 2 quantum loadout has little benefit going up close to the enemy.

In the Tac Oddy you should think like a WW1 style battlecruiser captain. Be setup to hit from maximum range, retain the tactical initiative with pure straight line speed, and setup enemy targets for the kill with Attack Pattern: Beta 2. BCs may not have worked in real naval combat, but this is sci fi and is the perfect place to experiment with such strategies in controlled environments.

A STF map is the perfect controlled environment to experiment with tactics, range discipline and other non-standard concepts you may come up with on your own. All enemies and force dispositions are the same, with the exception of the players' task force.

Conclusion:

The above are generally a list of both conventional and unconventional tactics and I tend to favour the latter. These aren't things that tend to work out of the box, but the idea of captaining the Odyssey, to me, is an invitation to experiment with all its combat flexiblity.

I prefer the assault cruiser as it can work as a gunship very well, but with experimentation and hard work the Odyssey can be one of the best cruisers out there as well. Sure, a Tac Oddy won't do the kind of damage a Fleet Escort can do, not ever, but with a good defensive setup I did manage to score 9 kills with 0 deaths last weekend in the Prototype with Lt. Cdr. Tactical officer.

I was playing a Science captain too, so my technique was tractor / debuff / APB and BO3 for an average of 10-12k damage per BO3 hit. When people fired back I had MACO shields and Borg 3 pc set for survivability and automatic repair.

The logic is thus:

You're going to want to use the LTC Universal for a Tactical officer, compromising some tanking ability. Compensate with Borg auto repair and a disciplined "Saber Dance" flight pattern to control the battlespace from long range.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.

My Youtube Channel

Last edited by carmenara; 07-03-2012 at 11:13 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 81
# 3
07-04-2012, 02:16 AM
You will need the MACO shields for sure: Not as much capacity, but the extra resist to Borg Damage pays for itself.
MACO shields + 3 Piece borg set is the best thing you can run in STFs.

The other thing you should consider: since you are running an oddy you should have plenty of Sci Consoles. Fill them all with the +18% shield capacity console.

Also stack 3 Shield Distributions Officers and make it a habit to use Brace For Impact whenever your shields are low and you don't have any shield heals left.

You will need at least 1 Neutronium Alloy in the Engi Slots.

At least 1 Tactical Team To Redistribute Shields.

Most of all you are running a cruiser. Make sure you have at least 2 Energy Setups:
Attack
100/25/25/50 when you are not the target and need to throw an emergency heal.

Heal and Tank
25/50/25/100 when you are the target and you must tank.
(Note that you can still do plenty of damage in that mode if you pop a Weapons Battery or Emergency power To weapons. Only difference is that you won't die i 5 seconds because your heals will be 4-5 times more effective)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,023
# 4
07-04-2012, 02:52 AM
Things that can go wrong:
  • When you use a ship for the first time, it's energy setting are all set to 50. But it seems you already accounted for that.
  • You picked a different Bridge Officer setup, accidentally or on purpose, and some important powers are now missing in your defensive rotation.
  • Setting on Elite difficulty at some point and forgetting to set it back.
  • Your new build may deal more damage, which draws more aggro. That only is relevant in team scenarios, when you're solo, you'll always have the attention of your enemies


Generally, when you have a problem with survivability, start here:
Train 2 Bridge Officers with Emergency Power to Shields (or one Bridge Officer with two). Cycle the two EptS so you have 100 % uptime, or at least use them whenever you are under fire and an EptS is ready. You should enjoy extreme survivability and steady shields. Don't forget to distribute shield power regularly, and add Hazard Emitters or Transfer Shield Strength to deal with the slow erosion of shields and hull.

EptS works wonders because it gives you signifcant damage reduction. It raises your shield power, which in turn raises your shield damage reduction, but it also has its own extra level of shield damage reduction on top of that. The increased power also improves your shield's innate regeneration.

.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 5
07-04-2012, 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theshadowed1 View Post
Maybe Warp Core Potental has been nerfed? Anyone notice that? Or is it that with a VA level ship, I'm now getting stronger NPCs? Does anyone know if NPC damage scales with level or ship rank? I would imagine so. I'm not the only one in the forums with Tac Odyssey issues like this. What's going on?
Warp Core Potential's fine, there've been no nerfs that I can see.

The problem is likely your defense rating.

If you switch back to your Assault Cruiser, fly at whatever speed you're used to flying at in combat; then open up your equipment window and look at the Defensive Stats tab for your ship. Note the Defense value - this can be anything from -15% to around +80%, depending on your speed, engine, ship type, equipment bonuses and captain traits.

Now do the same in your Odyssey.

Back when I swapped from a Star Cruiser to a Tac Ody (many many months ago), I noticed that I needed to increase my raw Engine power setting from 25 (Star Cruiser) to 40 (Ody) in order to hit an Impulse Speed of 24.00 (which will cap the defense bonus from speed) whenever my UI impulse speed slider was set at maximum. That's with an awful lot of Skillpoint tweaking and 5 Efficient BOFFs, so you may need a little bit higher than that in order to do the same.

Basically: If you're used to flying at a decent impulse setting and broadsiding foes, you'll have a lot less defence in an Odyssey than in an identically equipped Assault Cruiser unless you jack up your engine power setting.

Another factor may be shield facings. Besides having a better impulse modifier then the Odyssey, the Assault Cruiser has a better base Turn Rate. If you don't run a copy of Tactical Team constantly, you may find that foes are able to punch whatever shield facing you're pointing at them very quickly - on higher difficulties, it's unlikely that you'll be able to turn around to point another facing at them before they drop it. Manually balancing your shield facings can help, but Tac Team does it much faster than the manual version. So use Tac Team to keep your facings balanced.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 658
# 6
07-04-2012, 03:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustrumridcully0 View Post
Things that can go wrong:
  • When you use a ship for the first time, it's energy setting are all set to 50. But it seems you already accounted for that.
  • You picked a different Bridge Officer setup, accidentally or on purpose, and some important powers are now missing in your defensive rotation.
  • Setting on Elite difficulty at some point and forgetting to set it back.
  • Your new build may deal more damage, which draws more aggro. That only is relevant in team scenarios, when you're solo, you'll always have the attention of your enemies


Generally, when you have a problem with survivability, start here:
Train 2 Bridge Officers with Emergency Power to Shields (or one Bridge Officer with two). Cycle the two EptS so you have 100 % uptime, or at least use them whenever you are under fire and an EptS is ready. You should enjoy extreme survivability and steady shields. Don't forget to distribute shield power regularly, and add Hazard Emitters or Transfer Shield Strength to deal with the slow erosion of shields and hull.

EptS works wonders because it gives you signifcant damage reduction. It raises your shield power, which in turn raises your shield damage reduction, but it also has its own extra level of shield damage reduction on top of that. The increased power also improves your shield's innate regeneration.

.
Simple and effective Tanking 101 tips. Follow them

There are some instances where even dual EPTS cannot give enough shield regeneration, so RSP1 is a must.

EPTS also regenerates all shield facings at once, but cannot redistribute to cover a shield under heavy attack, thus you will need to use Tactical Team for auto-distribution.

For supplemental damage resistance, add on a Transfer Shield Strength I or II

For supplemental instant shield regeneration use a Science Team. But the problem is Science Team shares a global CD with other stuff like ET1 and TT1 so its usually relegated to being a backup or team heal and may not be worth the boff slot in competitive play.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.

My Youtube Channel
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,023
# 7
07-04-2012, 03:38 AM
Regarding the Defense value: Did you change your build for a forward-firing build with the Dual Beam Banks? If so, do you ofteb find yourself stopping or slowing down signifcantly? That would reduce your defense rating and increase the chance of hits and critical hits and critical hit severity. It may be better to use a broad-siding build with beam arrays. Use Nagorak's DPS Calculator to figure out how much - if any - DPS you'd lose.

I am not sure if the Odysee also has a lower Impulse Modifier, maelwy5 post may indicate it has. It could also just be a different inertia rating, meaning your Odysee is slower to change speed or direction, also probably lowering your average speed. I believe whenever you find your ship "sliding" through space, you are probably losing speed and thus defense.

I still believe the dual-EPtS effect will make a bigger difference, but if you didn't use that before either, the differences you experience may come from your defense ratings.

You could probably improve your chances if you also have that saucer seperation console for the Oddy (did you get thepack or just the tacticla one?). When seperated, you'll be more maneuerable and faster, IIRC.

Last edited by mustrumridcully0; 07-04-2012 at 03:41 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 8
07-04-2012, 04:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmenara View Post
Simple and effective Tanking 101 tips. Follow them

There are some instances where even dual EPTS cannot give enough shield regeneration, so RSP1 is a must.

EPTS also regenerates all shield facings at once, but cannot redistribute to cover a shield under heavy attack, thus you will need to use Tactical Team for auto-distribution.

For supplemental damage resistance, add on a Transfer Shield Strength I or II.

For supplemental instant shield regeneration use a Science Team. But the problem is Science Team shares a global CD with other stuff like ET1 and TT1 so its usually relegated to being a backup or team heal and may not be worth the boff slot in competitive play.
Just to clarify: Supplemental Damage resistance from TSS only applies to your shields, not your hull. For additional Hull damage resistance, you're best going with Aux2SIF since it has a very good uptime resistance buff ratio as well as a small heal component, and it is also ally-targettable.

Also, whilst RSP1 is certainly very handy in a pinch, it's on a very long cooldown and you can slot a Shield Distribution DOFF in order to get the same effect from hitting 'Brace for Impact' which has a much shorter cooldown. RSP is nice to have, but in a choice between RSP and Aux2SIF I'd go for Aux2SIF every time. At least in PvE.

As long as you have a decent shield (MACO?) and are cycling EPTS and Tac Team... using Hazard Emitters, TSS and Aux2SIF will pretty much take care of keeping you topped up and fairly hardy. After that, the best means of further hardening is to start slotting Neutronium or Monotanium Armor consoles. Shield Capacity consoles are another option, but the benefit from those only applies against initial spike damage, not sustained damage over time. In PvE you'll mainly be weathering sustained damage over time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mustrumridcully0 View Post
I am not sure if the Odysee also has a lower Impulse Modifier, maelwy5 post may indicate it has. It could also just be a different inertia rating, meaning your Odysee is slower to change speed or direction, also probably lowering your average speed. I believe whenever you find your ship "sliding" through space, you are probably losing speed and thus defense.
Maximum speed appears to be affected by both Impulse Modifer and Inertia.
(I know, it's dumb)

You need to hit 24.0 impulse speed to Cap your defense bonus regardless of what ship you're flying. With an identical equipment setup, I distinctly remember having to divert more engine power on the Ody in order to be able to hit 24.0 at full speed (not "full impulse", just with UI ship speed slider set to full). The OPs experience may be slightly different though, given that they are going from an Assault Cruiser to an Ody rather than going from a Star Cruiser to an Ody.

Chevron Seperation's behaviour changes things a little: whilst seperated, my Ody can hit the defense cap with a base engine power setting of 25 instead of 40. Also, for some reason after seperation that cap seems to shift up 10% (on my own build the total achievable defence went from 70% to 80%) I assume that a seperated Ody counts as an "Escort" and is getting the appropriate additional defence bonus.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,023
# 9
07-04-2012, 05:34 AM
I seem to remember that Star Cruiser and Assault Cruiser are identical in impulse modifier and inertia.

I didn't know Chevron Seperation would affect defense rating on its own. That's interesting. 10 % defense is a pretty good deal, I think.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 503
# 10
07-04-2012, 06:16 AM
my oddys seem to be weaker. my tac oddy use to be really tough, but not so much now.
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