Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,863
# 11
07-07-2012, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psiameese View Post
Unless the mission in test suggests otherwise, I'm not convinced these Tholians represent the Tholian Assembly of our universe. In which case, they don't need a sector.
whenever time travel or the mirror universe is about.. the tholians arnt to far behind.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 226
# 12
07-07-2012, 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thlaylierah View Post
The Star Fleet Battles Game has them coming from "Beyond Our Galaxy" chased by the Seltorians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tholian
The Crimes of the Taurus reach will not be forgotten!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 29
# 13
07-07-2012, 12:40 PM
Awe Man you did not go there! The SFU is not Neotrek! Believe me, I have had more than a few WT....S from SFU to Trek, Point 1 is consistency, SFU is that in spades. Trek is all about whos story is being written at the time. Mr. Rodenbary was a Passifist, the SFU is Not. That is after all StarFleet Battles. This is Trek. SFU has the Th fleeing there Slaves who threw them out of there own Galaxy. The Ciltorians. Who shoot Partical beams Phasers Web brakers and shield crackers at people. The Thols.... are big crystal guys who live at 125C have web devices that somehow block energy and stop ships in there tracks. And are cool enough to move and entire Dison sphere across from one galaxy to another. they setup shop between the Roms and the Klings, kept them from reinforcing one another during the General War, gave the FEDs fits, and finally lost when the Ciltorian Hiveship showup and lived them into dust, atleast until the Andros showup to womp all over the ISC Galactic piece.
Wish I could think of something wise and cool, and all That!
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
# 14
07-07-2012, 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebeneezergoode View Post
That's a nice chart, but I'm sure it was mentioned in "The Tholian Web" that they bordered both the Klingon Empire and the Federation, and they certainly do in the Vanguard and Typhon Pact books, and according to Memory Alpha. I'm working my way through remastered TOS, and was gonna jump to that one with the impending Season 6 release anyhow.
Only one problem: Those books aren't canon and the great majority of Star Trek as we know it wasn't established until the 2nd movie and TNG. You could say that in a manner of speaking, TOS has retconned itself out of Trek cannon just because of how cheap it's production values were, and how it's nearly 50 years old, where-as the rest of the series followed one right after another with very little time in between their productions.
"My frozen dairy-based confectionery attracts all the males of the species to the facilities. They all agree on it's superiority. Indeed, it is superior to yours. I could teach you the finer details but that would require monetary recompense on your part."
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 77
# 15
07-07-2012, 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cusashorn View Post
Only one problem: Those books aren't canon and the great majority of Star Trek as we know it wasn't established until the 2nd movie and TNG. You could say that in a manner of speaking, TOS has retconned itself out of Trek cannon just because of how cheap it's production values were, and how it's nearly 50 years old, where-as the rest of the series followed one right after another with very little time in between their productions.
The map you linked to isn't canon either, though.

The TrekLit continuity is probably more reliable, mainly because the Vanguard books were signed off by CBS.

Another thing worth thinking about; in "In a Mirror, Darkly", the Cardassians haven't been discovered by the Terran Empire, but they are aware of the Tholians (probably through the Vulcans). It would make more sense for the Assembly to border onto Terran Empire space - space also occupied by the modern Federation - because it would have taken the Enterprise a long time to get to the Defiant, otherwise.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 16
07-07-2012, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zadama View Post
The map you linked to isn't canon either, though.
I'm sorry, but you are very much in the wrong.

Not only does STO use the Star Trek Star Charts as reference when creating Sector Space, CBS / Paramount also used that same map in the Starfleet Academy segment in the TMP Movie DVD Collection.

So since CBS / Paramount has used it twice, therefore it's regarded as canon. And this map very well could find it's way in future Star Trek (afterall this map was created after Enterprise was cancelled).

Last edited by azurianstar; 07-07-2012 at 01:34 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 77
# 17
07-07-2012, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
I'm sorry, but you are very much in the wrong.

Not only does STO use the Star Trek Star Charts as reference when creating Sector Space, CBS / Paramount also used that same map in the Starfleet Academy segment in the TMP Movie DVD Collection.

So since CBS / Paramount has used it twice, therefore it's regarded as canon. And this map very well could find it's way in future Star Trek (afterall this map was created after Enterprise was cancelled).
Well I didn't know that, so I stand corrected!

Nevertheless, the map in that picture doesn't specifically identify the location of Tholian space. According to Memory Alpha, the TNG episode "Reunion" also identifies Tholian space as bordering the Federation and Klingon Empire, but I can't recall exactly what was said there.

If it was to the west of Cardassian space, why would the Tholians be in the Eta Eridani Sector Block? Especially when, if the Assembly bordered the Federation and the Empire, that would be the most appropriate location for them to be.

Edit: Looking at http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/Atlas.htm the Tholian Assembly does seem to border Federation space.

Last edited by zadama; 07-07-2012 at 01:56 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 18
07-07-2012, 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zadama View Post
Well I didn't know that, so I stand corrected!

Nevertheless, the map in that picture doesn't specifically identify the location of Tholian space. According to Memory Alpha, the TNG episode "Reunion" also identifies Tholian space as bordering the Federation and Klingon Empire, but I can't recall exactly what was said there.

If it was to the west of Cardassian space, why would the Tholians be in the Eta Eridani Sector Block? Especially when, if the Assembly bordered the Federation and the Empire, that would be the most appropriate location for them to be.

Edit: Looking at http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/Atlas.htm the Tholian Assembly does seem to border Federation space.
I agree, that fanmade star map is more convincing for the location. However, on that same webpage you was refering to, if you scroll down to the offical TNG Sector Map that Memory Alpha links, shows the Tholian Assembly on opposite sides of the Federation. And that is why the creator of the Star Trek Star Charts put the Tholians near Cardassian space.


So here is the following possibilities:

1) Tholian Space is extended above or below Federation space on the Galactic plane and thus fulfilling it boarding both the Federation or Klingon space.

2) The Klingon Empire and the UFP has territories extending along Tholian Space.

3) The term "borders" isn't meant literally, but figuratively.

Last edited by azurianstar; 07-07-2012 at 02:17 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 77
# 19
07-07-2012, 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurianstar View Post
I agree, that fanmade star map is more convincing for the location. However, on that same webpage you was refering to, if you scroll down to the offical TNG Sector Map that Memory Alpha links, shows the Tholian Assembly on opposite sides of the Federation. And that is why the creator of the Star Trek Star Charts put the Tholians near Cardassian space.


So here is the following possibilities:

1) Tholian Space is extended above or below Federation space on the Galactic plane and thus fulfilling it boarding both the Federation or Klingon space.

2) The Klingon Empire and the UFP has territories extending along Tholian Space, on the opposite side of Cardassian space.

3) The term "borders" isn't meant literally, but figuratively.

That seems to make sense - I couldn't place the other image, so I wasn't sure where it was.

Either way, the most likely solution is that because the Tholian Assembly was never really visited or explored propperly on-screen, there was no need to establish an exact location for it. I mean, the writers have contradicted themselves in the past, and over much more obvious details.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,416
# 20
07-07-2012, 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zadama View Post
That seems to make sense - I couldn't place the other image, so I wasn't sure where it was.

Either way, the most likely solution is that because the Tholian Assembly was never really visited or explored propperly on-screen, there was no need to establish an exact location for it. I mean, the writers have contradicted themselves in the past, and over much more obvious details.
Cryptic really doesn't have to do anything. If you look at the Star Charts, Tholian space is along Gamma Orionis. All they have to do is just add a sector next to Pelia and it will still fulfill that line about "bordering" UFP and Klingon space. Since technically Gamma Orionis is bordering all three factions (and the Borg).
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