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Transphasic Torpedo change feedback: Improved but not quite there yet

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sophlogimo

Rihannsu

Join Date: Jun 2012

Posts: 2,463

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathray38

Optimal buff to transphasics is buff making them as useful and as popular as photons/quantums.

I agree.

Quote:

[...]
To make them "equal in usefulness" to quantums/photons, on top of 50% penetration and 10% accuracy they still need significant DPS buff, around 15-20%.

Okay, let us run some numbers. Currently on Tribble:

Mk XII Quantums: 3313 DPV, 5% (165) bleedthrough resilient shields; 828 vs shields.
Mk XII Photons: 2980 DPV, 5 % (149) bleedthrough vs. resilient shields, 745 vs shields
MK XII Transphasics: 2155 DPV, 41% (883) bleedthrough vs. resilient shields, 538 vs shields.

With projectile weapons doffs and 2-3 launchers, it can be roughly DPV=DPS. But that means to sacrifice 2-3 weapon slots which could also be beam arrays (doing around 1600-2400 dps).

From my testing, it looks like that damage to hull are acceptable against escorts who cannot heal it away, but too low for killing anything else in a meaningful amount of time because all the target's hull heals will have to deal just with that bleedthrough of 883 dps.

Okay, a tank build will have at least HE1, Aux to Sif 2, and possibly ET1 in terms of hull heals, for something like 420-500 heal per second, right? That means a transphasic torpedo ship will need 150 seconds to kill such a ship. Two and a half minutes, shortened by consoles, THY, skill, critical hits, and attack patterns and such.

A Quantum torpedo, however, will do over 120000 shield damage (minus shield heals) during that time, and what's more, will add his shield damage to the energy weapon damage of this and other firing ships, which means they work together, not separately like energy weapons and transphasics...

Commander Sophlog Imo, Romulan Republic Fleet

"Shut up, Tovan..."

deathray38

Lieutenant

Join Date: Jul 2012

Posts: 32

Micro torpedo tubes logically can use better firing arcs then regular torps. They require less space, therefore lunching system is more compact - so giving it larger arc is completely logical.

And there is no reason to restrict any kind of torps to any kinds of ships.

deathray38

Lieutenant

Join Date: Jul 2012

Posts: 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by sophlogimo

I agree.

Okay, let us run some numbers. Currently on Tribble:

Mk XII Quantums: 3313 DPV, 5% (165) bleedthrough resilient shields; 828 vs shields.
Mk XII Photons: 2980 DPV, 5 % (149) bleedthrough vs. resilient shields, 745 vs shields
MK XII Transphasics: 2155 DPV, 41% (883) bleedthrough vs. resilient shields, 538 vs shields.

With projectile weapons doffs and 2-3 launchers, it can be roughly DPV=DPS. But that means to sacrifice 2-3 weapon slots which could also be beam arrays (doing around 1600-2400 dps).

From my testing, it looks like that damage to hull are acceptable against escorts who cannot heal it away, but too low for killing anything else in a meaningful amount of time because all the target's hull heals will have to deal just with that bleedthrough of 883 dps.

Okay, a tank build will have at least HE1, Aux to Sif 2, and possibly ET1 in terms of hull heals, for something like 420-500 heal per second, right? That means a transphasic torpedo ship will need 150 seconds to kill such a ship. Two and a half minutes, shortened by consoles, THY, skill, critical hits, and attack patterns and such.

A Quantum torpedo, however, will do over 120000 shield damage (minus shield heals) during that time, and what's more, will add his shield damage to the energy weapon damage of this and other firing ships, which means they work together, not separately like energy weapons and transphasics...

Ok, lets give transphasics:
50% shield penetration
10% accuracy bonus
20% damage buff

Then we have:

Mk XII Quantums: 3313 DPV, 5% (165) bleedthrough resilient shields; 828 vs shields.
Mk XII Photons: 2980 DPV, 5 % (149) bleedthrough vs. resilient shields, 745 vs shields
MK XII Transphasics: 2586 DPV, 50% (1422) bleedthrough vs. resilient shields, 646 vs shields.

And now transphasics are really powerful toy, able to replace quantums/photosn in many situations.

Actual DPS of one luncher (when shields are ON) are:

Mk XII Quantums: 19 DPS to hull (resillent shield), 39 DPS to hull (regular shield)
Mk XII Photons: 24 DPS to hull (resillent shield), 50 DPS to hull (regular shield)
MK XII Transphasics: 129 DPS to hull (resillent shield), 135 DPS to hull (regular shield)

And transphasics in this case have 10% better accuracy giving them either better chance to hit, or stronger critical.

IMO it is enough to make them useful, 2.5-5x more DPS then other torps to shielded hull for expense of 2x weaker DPS to unshielded hulls is fair deal, especially if we take bonus accuracy into account.

Last edited by deathray38; 07-10-2012 at 01:46 AM.

dontdrunkimshoot

Empire Veteran

Join Date: Jun 2012

Posts: 3,546

so torpedoes do about 25% damage to shields huh? i knew it was low, but thats just pitiful

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sophlogimo

Rihannsu

Join Date: Jun 2012

Posts: 2,463

Quote:

Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot

so torpedoes do about 25% damage to shields huh? i knew it was low, but thats just pitiful

Yes. You can see this in the combat log only since a few patches ago, (June?). On Tribble, the yellow numbers that have always displayed hull damage have been given a new neighbor in white numbers which show shield damage - so you technically don't even need the logs any more.

Commander Sophlog Imo, Romulan Republic Fleet

"Shut up, Tovan..."

dontdrunkimshoot

Empire Veteran

Join Date: Jun 2012

Posts: 3,546

Quote:

Originally Posted by sophlogimo

gonna add that 25% fact to my anti torpedo rant, next time im compelled to give it. id love to see how torps could effect thing if they did full damage minus bleed through to shields. that would change everything... well maybe.

deathray38

Lieutenant

Join Date: Jul 2012

Posts: 32

Quote:

so torpedoes do about 25% damage to shields huh? i knew it was low, but thats just pitiful

Torpedos purpose is spike damage. 10000 hp target cannot be killed by 1000 DPS weapon, if it is regenerating 2000 hp/s. On the other hand 100 dps weapon will kill it, if its one-shoot damage is 10000 - of course reload time of 100s is huge, but this example show how low-dps weapon doing huge spike damage can outperform 10 times stronger (in terms of DPS) high-DPS weapon doing small spike damage.

Thats how photons/quantums are working, and thats how transphasics are not working, because of too low spike damage and no special ability strong enough to compensate it.

Transphasics need (sorry for repeating myself):
- 50% shield penetration
- 10% accuracy bonus
and if developers really want to give us some diversity:
- 20% damage buff

sophlogimo

Rihannsu

Join Date: Jun 2012

Posts: 2,463

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathray38

Torpedos purpose is spike damage. 10000 hp target cannot be killed by 1000 DPS weapon, if it is regenerating 2000 hp/s. On the other hand 100 dps weapon will kill it, if its one-shoot damage is 10000 -
[...]
Thats how photons/quantums are working, and thats how transphasics are not working, because of too low spike damage and no special ability strong enough to compensate it.
[...]]

That is an excellent summary, I think. Transphasics as currently on Tribble work only with three projectile weapons doffs, and then as a sustained damage to hull source. So their niche will be very different: In essence, they can only force escorts to go away from complete shield tanking.

Commander Sophlog Imo, Romulan Republic Fleet

"Shut up, Tovan..."

shimmerless

Captain

Join Date: Jun 2012

Posts: 1,389

The conceptual problem with transphasics is basically that if you're going to use torps at all, you don't use them to do sustained damage. They're hull burst weapons; your firing rate is far too slow and your arc is (in context) too narrow to bother with. No one is going to sit in front of you for ten seconds waiting for you to reload. While you could run all purple torp DOffs, you're still capped out at a waiting time of two/three seconds between shots. That's just too long in STO.

The bleed itself is also far too weak. No escort worth two cents is going to break down over ~1,500 hull damage (it's actually closer to ~860, as 'shield penetration' is not the same as bleedthrough, and transphasics reduce the innate shield resistance rather than applying direct hull damage). Of course it can be buffed in a lot of ways, but then so can everything else.

If you were absolutely committed to it, I could see someone talented making a (full purp DOff-complemented, Breen/KHG-set buffed) transphasic build work. It might be decent in a a Defiant Retro/B'rel. Ultimately though, you can either strip them or take them offline, but you can't flat-out ignore someone's shields. If you want a torp boat there are much better options.

deathray38

Lieutenant

Join Date: Jul 2012

Posts: 32

Quote:

"forcing unsupported escorts to use something more then pure shield tanking by dedicated transphasic torpedo boat and 3 projectile offciers" doesn't sound great. It sound like "hey, I know 40% transphasics still suck, but if you build entire ship around them, then in very specific combat situation (enemy using pure shield tanking) against one type of enemies (escorts only) it can do some damage!"

Developers must decide what purpose of transphasics is. Weapon doing 50-55% less damage then its tier-cost equivalents need something VERY powerful to compensate such huge disadvantage.

Torpedoes are anti-hull weapons, nearly useless against shields. Cutting torpedoes anti-hull potential by giving them insignificant boost to already weak anti-shield capabilities is step into wrong direction - weapon is still useless against shielded targets, only marginally better then other torps, but it suck completely in it's main role - attacking unshielded opponents.

It's like giving you expensive saddle, but killing your horse.
You can ride on it, but either saddle need wheels and engine, or horse must be not-so-dead at all.

Thats why I suggest overall buff: Transpahsics doing more base damage AND getting better penetration AND getting extra bonus, making them on-pair with much stronger, standard torpedoes.

50% shield penetration
+10% accuracy
+20% damage buff

Too much? Don't think so...

Last edited by deathray38; 07-10-2012 at 02:35 AM.

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