Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
# 1 360-degree flight
07-10-2012, 12:16 PM
Surely I'll get flamed for postig this again, but since beta, I have wanted 360-degree rotation in spaceflight. Now I ask again, please.

I realize that this might require some upgrades to the underlying game engine. You need to use quaternion math to avoid gimble-lock scenarios. If you don't already use quaternion rotation this would need to be implemented, which would probably not be easy depending on your existing code-base.

But if your engine already has quaternion rotation (I'd frankly be surprised if it doesn't!), then you just need to disable the angular constraints and add controls for rolling the ship.

It's out of canon for starships to have their rotation constrained like this. Watch Wrath of Khan or the latest Star Trek film. The starship combat is so awesome, with ships flying in all directions.

For people who find it disorienting, there could be a "constrain ship rotation" option. Simple.

It's tweaks like this that I think could bring people back to STO and attract new players too. Anyone who seriously likes space games is likely to expect 360-degree flight, since it's in all the great classic space games (such as all the LucasArts games like the classic X-Wing, Battlefront II, etc.).
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 941
# 2
07-10-2012, 01:23 PM
To quote Spock from TWoK:

"...the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..."

...in other words, a majority of the players have a hard enough time dealing with what space they do have to fly in and could not handle full 360 degree rotation through all 3 axis.

...and there was something about it being canon that starships NOT be flown upside down.
Even though in space there is no up or down or left or right or north or south, east or west, etc.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,024
# 3
07-10-2012, 01:24 PM
Cryptic dosen't know how to do that.
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,779
# 4
07-10-2012, 01:58 PM
As far as I understand it the engine is already capable of it, or something close. Dan Stahl said a long time ago they tested it and they decided not to go that route. They've emphatically said that they will never do it.

There's a reason why the ships in the series and movies rarely if ever did anything like that, even though the real world physics would support the idea. It doesn't display well to the human eye. Heck, even Star Wars never showed inverted flight for any extended period of time. Name me one sci fi movie or TV show where they consistently portrayed full 3D space flight, all the time. I sure can't think of any. They'll do it briefly for dramatic effect, but they always revert back to "normal" orientation for the viewers' perspective.

Cryptic has already compromised by allowing a greater degree of vertical pitch, but they aren't likely to change it again.

Case closed. End of.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 518
# 5
07-10-2012, 02:03 PM
don't we already have 360 degree flight in the ability to rotate along the plane of flight (and most ships angle in tandem with this turn? plus depending on your ship class an additional arc above and below in the forward/aft direction that to alter the plane of flight. Are you asking for an addition axis of rotation to allow us to spin or upside down or roll in flight?

In Game: @Liath | STO Join Date: Jan 2012 | PWE Join Date: Feb 2009
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 31
# 6
07-10-2012, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyryck View Post
...and there was something about it being canon that starships NOT be flown upside down. Even though in space there is no up or down or left or right or north or south, east or west, etc.
On ST:TNG, last episode "All Good Things" Adm. Riker's Enterprise decloacks from directly under the Klingon cruisers, on a 90 degree angle relative to their fligh plane before firing the lancer phaser.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 459
# 7
07-10-2012, 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
*snip
Name me one sci fi movie or TV show where they consistently portrayed full 3D space flight, all the time. I sure can't think of any. They'll do it briefly for dramatic effect, but they always revert back to "normal" orientation for the viewers' perspective.
*snip*
Babylon 5 was pretty consistent 3d space combat.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 941
# 8
07-10-2012, 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvaiks View Post
On ST:TNG, last episode "All Good Things" Adm. Riker's Enterprise decloacks from directly under the Klingon cruisers, on a 90 degree angle relative to their fligh plane before firing the lancer phaser.
Having never seen those last episodes, I'll have to trust your description.

But a single point of view attack that ends the battle is not the same as a protracted furball of a fight with full 360 degree rotation through all 3 axis.

In TWoK while the ships are in the Nebula, on the main bridge viewer there is a shot of the top of the Reliant as it passes close by the Enterprise. How is the Enterprise oriented in relation to the Reliant?

Now provide an answer to the following question as quickly as you can without spending hours thinking about it: was the viewer pointing downward, forward, rearward or upwards in relation to the plane of the Enterprise? In other words, in relation to the Enterprise, was the Reliant below it, in front of it, on its side or maybe even behind the Enterprise on its nose?

Full 3d "movement" would bring about a perception challenge to the game that adds a level of complexity that most players would wind up passing on.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
# 9
07-10-2012, 03:19 PM
As already mentioned, technical limitations PREVENT this from happening. It's for the best to maintain a sense of direction anyway.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,007
# 10
07-10-2012, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkeith2011 View Post
Babylon 5 was pretty consistent 3d space combat.
I don;t recall a single B5 episode where we saw 360 degree combat. It all looked like it was on a plane to me.

edit: Heck, I don;t even recall a single upside down ship when compared to others.
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