Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
# 11
07-10-2012, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by pyryck View Post
To quote Spock from TWoK: *

"...the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." other words, a majority of the players have a hard enough time dealing with what space they do have to fly in and could not handle full 360 degree rotation through all 3 axis.
To quote Ripley from Aliens:*

"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"

I already said it would be an optional feature. Protip: that means you can turn on or off. Please read posts before responding, in the future.

...and there was something about it being canon that starships NOT be flown upside down. *
Even though in space there is no up or down or left or right or north or south, east or west, etc.
What you said here makes zero sense.*

First of all, this is a game, not a movie. Most space games dating back to Space Rogue, X-Wing, Starfox, and countless others have full 3D rotation.*

Second of all, the only reason you didn't see more crazy full-3D space flight in the TV show was because of budgetary and technical limitations. Notice how in the movies they do a lot of full 3D rotations, because that's how they ultimately wanted it to be all along.*

The argument from canon to justify no 3D rotations is just made of pure fail.

Last edited by seraphantilles; 07-10-2012 at 08:18 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 97
# 12
07-10-2012, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
As far as I understand it the engine is already capable of it, or something close. *Dan Stahl said a long time ago they tested it and they decided not to go that route. *They've emphatically said that they will never do it.
So it can technically be done, but they just chose not to enable it. Good to know.

There's a reason why the ships in the series and movies rarely if ever did anything like that, even though the real world physics would support the idea. *It doesn't display well to the human eye.* Heck, even Star Wars never showed inverted flight for any extended period of time.
This is just so wrong. Star Wars is absolutely full of spaceship maneuvers that would be impossible in STO. Watch the opening space battle scene of Episode 3. Watch the Millennium Falcon vs. star destroyers in Empire Strikes Back (where it ends up parked vertically on the side of the star destroyer!). Or the scene in Attack of the Clones where Obi-Wan is being chased by Jango Fett through an asteroid field. Do I really need to go on?

Really all of the most compelling, exciting, visually awesome space battles ever recorded to film have involved full-3D rotations.*

And don't even make me list you all the awesome dogfight sequences in airplane movies such as Top Gun and many, many others.

*Name me one sci fi movie or TV show where they consistently portrayed full 3D space flight, all the time. *I sure can't think of any.
You best be joking. Look.. I'm not suggesting that ships be forced to barrel roll 100% of the time. There could still be a "home" orientation whenever combat ends. Many space games even like Galaxy On Fire even have a setting to drift back to the home orientation automatically after no other directional control has been pressed for a certain duration.*

But during combat, full 360-degree rotational capability is a MUST for an serious, decent space or air combat game. Give me a break! Only craptastic flight sims like Sega Afterburner lack 360-degree rotation. Star Trek needs to not be the "Afterburner" of space games. I can't think of ONE decent space game that ever imposed the kind of rotational limitations that STO does.

We really need this for PVP and fleet actions. I can't tell you the number of times I was directly underneath or on top of a group of enemy ships, yet I couldn't just fly in a straight line directly to them due to this stupid rotation blocking. So I have to fly in a spiral rotation maneuver to get there. That doesn't make the game easier, it makes it harder and more frustrating.

They'll do it briefly for dramatic effect, but they always revert back to "normal" orientation for the viewers' perspective.
I challenge you to find one single space battle scene in one single space movie where there is NO full-3D rotation of any kind. Must be a major studio film. (I'm sure there are one or two, but not very many.)*

Not that what is in movies is valid for arguing about anything other than the cut-scenes of STO, but anyway.

Cryptic has already compromised by allowing a greater degree of vertical pitch, but they aren't likely to change it again.

Case closed. *End of.
Not closed. Not end of.

Why would it ruin the game for you if this option existed for those of us who would enjoy it?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 430
# 13
07-10-2012, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by seraphantilles View Post
*rigorously beating the horse carcass*
I love these old threads, this one is almost as fun to read as player crewed ships.

Course, in the end it comes to nought, just as it has every other time this topic gets dragged out. You can poke holes in other peoples arguments all you want, parade all the other games out that you can think of, make all the snide comments you can giggle to, and yet still nothing is going to change.
Joined August 2008
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 466
# 14
07-10-2012, 09:39 PM
Some here vs the Shadow Destroyers

Several scattered through this montage (check at 6:50 and 8:00 for a couple really good examples)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5
# 15
07-10-2012, 10:29 PM
Let developers add to the possibility of setting vertical control
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 278
# 16
07-10-2012, 10:56 PM
all i know is the "cork screw" maneuver is dumb

join date: Jan. 2012
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 880
# 17
07-11-2012, 12:08 AM
I heard in one of the recent podcasts (priority one possibly) that the reason for how it is currently is so that people don't become disoriented during play. Having everything on a plane keeps it simple enough for most players to access it and not get confused/disoriented.

I tend to agree.

However to be able to fly vertically up or down would be nice and not break that model.
Dislike the forum theme? Try THIS. Dislike the STO home page? Try THIS.

Using - Klinzhai, Pythus Fighter Favs - Corsair, Bulwark, Mogh, Mat'Ha, Voth Fighter
Some others - Manasa, Qib, Nicor, Sheshar, JAS, Bastion The rest - HERE

Fed - Geneva, Rom - Vastam
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 880
# 18
07-11-2012, 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by seraphantilles View Post
I realize that this might require some upgrades to the underlying game engine. You need to use quaternion math to avoid gimble-lock scenarios. If you don't already use quaternion rotation this would need to be implemented, which would probably not be easy depending on your existing code-base.

But if your engine already has quaternion rotation (I'd frankly be surprised if it doesn't!), then you just need to disable the angular constraints and add controls for rolling the ship.
You do realize that most people who did not major in Mathematics in college do not even know what quaternions are, much less software-based quaternion rotation? Your average person can barely handle using i, much less j and k.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,486
# 19
07-11-2012, 08:15 AM
My feelings on the subject is 2 fold:

1) It's canon. Yes, there are a handful of times in the shows/movies where ships did crazy 3d movements. 99% of the rest of the show, any ships that met in space, were sitting on the same invisible plane, with both of their respective 'ups' pointed in the same direction. This is Star Trek, in Star Trek there IS an up in space.

2) Full 3D flight, without the benefit of huge landmarks like, say, the ground, can get very disorienting. Don't get me wrong, I love a full 3d Space Sim as much as the next guy (gah! Bring back Freelancer! and Tie Fighter!), but it DOES get confusing, even to me. A newbie, who's only here for the trek, and doesn't have a lot of experience in other space games, can already get overwhelmed in combat as it stands today. Add full 3d movement to that, and you've lost a customer.

Oh, and btw, Quaternions screw with my head constantly. Our sky system uses them for sun movement, and it takes me forever to get something into the position I want it to be.
Only YOU can prevent forum fires!

Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 88
# 20 o
07-11-2012, 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Heck, even Star Wars never showed inverted flight for any extended period of time. Name me one sci fi movie or TV show where they consistently portrayed full 3D space flight, all the time.
1) Babylon 5 - They asked NASA n Scientists for info on how to Keep it as "Real" as Possible.

2) In StarWars there are several moments where you see a ship "not right side up" through out it. Heck Han dives between two Stardestoyers that are flying one upside down the other right side up, they nearly collide during Empire Strikes Back.

3) Reason STO won't go "Real" is CBS, the Space Ships must Always be right side up, as if we sailing on the ocean or something. They're also why we have turn rates like there is "resistance" in space, doesn't match up with physics, but meh it's a Game. There is no "Up" in space, unless you play STO.

4) As Tacofangs said they try to keep it super Simple for the kids.

"...just look at my track record for making the improvements that I said we would with the KDF and judge by that." - Dan Stahl

Last edited by krell83sto; 07-11-2012 at 08:30 AM.

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:10 AM.