Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 11
07-16-2012, 05:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
In short.. dont bother using the pet commands. Pets will, without ordering them to, attack whatever you have targetted. That was the lame no-work-for-us solution the devs came up with after screwing the pet AI up.
I'm afraid i couldn't disagree with this more, while your boff set-up does make an amazing tank, and i would know, i run a similar set up and have a carrier that survives almost anything, my B'Rolth Birds-of-Prey follow commands well, the Escort order, i agree, is useless, and i never use it, i just use the attack order on the ship they're having trouble with and over 90% of the time they will attack it, usually aggro-ing it and blasting them by over 20k in damage. Recall, while i think them sitting cloaked is a major advantage, they can be insta-killed by tricobalt mines in the area, but i can respawn them in about 20 seconds due to high aux power and doffs. I rarely use intercept order as i shoot the torpedoes myself, or they do no damage anyway.
And regarding your weapons set-up, i find due to a lack of weapons power a full beam boat adds little, so i add the capability of burst damage in STF by adding the bio-neural warhead, though occasionally i do switch to 6 beams, but not often, and even when bored as hell a dual beam, 2 dual cannons, and 3 turrets, which for that ship is laughable.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 12
07-16-2012, 06:29 AM
I'll address these in order:

Quote:
Originally Posted by benj2293 View Post
i just use the attack order on the ship they're having trouble with and over 90% of the time they will attack it, usually aggro-ing it and blasting them by over 20k in damage.
Try this:

Do not issue attack order. Issue no orders. Select a target, shoot it. The BoPs will fly to it and hit it. This is one of the band-aid fixed applied when they screwed with the pet AI.

The 20k damage you will notice is spread over 2 or more shield of the target. The new flight pattern has the BoPs, for some idiotic reason, flying in different directions and approaching the target in a semi-circle approach where they cant fire their dual cannons or torpedos during the approach and its only on the very last few seconds when the BoP actually FACES the target that they fire. Due to the semi-circle approach and split-up flight pattern the BoPs end up doing those 20k damage in : 10k to one shield, 5k to another shield and 5k to another shield. Result? your target is meagerly hurt. They will only do noticeable damage if the hull is hit (since hull has no 'facings').

Also, the BoPs will cease to obey your orders except recall if they fly outside 15km range. The glitch there is that they will choose their own target and even if you recall them and they sit next to your carrier after a long,slow flight...the moment you click attack on a different target they will ignore it and go back to their original self-chosen target.

I don't understand what is so hard for the devs to STOP the pets from choosing their own targets. They should only have one target: what the carrier told them to attack.

Before the AI patch screw up this could be counter-commanded with Recall order (it cleared their target list) but now it doesnt.

Here's a video of me testing a dual heavy torpedo setup...and using a different boff setup before the patch changes. So ignore that stuff. Concentrate instead on the Birds of Prey and how they react to the carrier commands, how they fly in formation, how they beeline to target when ordered to attack it, how they all hit the same SHIELD and obliterate it + do heavy hull damage on the targets. More importantly, look how they hit full impulse to return to your carrier's side -AND- park+face the same direction your carrier is facing.

Amazing.. why the heck did they mess this up is beyond understanding.

http://youtu.be/xuQpeQxF2s8

Quote:
Recall, while i think them sitting cloaked is a major advantage, they can be insta-killed by tricobalt mines in the area, but i can respawn them in about 20 seconds due to high aux power and doffs. I rarely use intercept order as i shoot the torpedoes myself, or they do no damage anyway.
Its not about them sitting next to your carrier cloaked. Its that if the BoPs are 12km away and you recall them, they will cloak and CRAWL back to your carrier.. at what seems to be 1/4th impulse. Under those conditions you cant really control them in battle...and you lose them fast from random explosions as they fly back to you. It is, sadly, better to tell them to escort a KDF ship thats near you so they fly speedily to your proximity.

Quote:
And regarding your weapons set-up, i find due to a lack of weapons power a full beam boat adds little, so i add the capability of burst damage in STF by adding the bio-neural warhead, though occasionally i do switch to 6 beams, but not often, and even when bored as hell a dual beam, 2 dual cannons, and 3 turrets, which for that ship is laughable.

On the contrary.. a full beam boat has plenty of damage precisely because it is 6 beams working on fire at will nonstop. The bioneural does add oomph but it does **** damage vs shielded targets and you cannot reliably drop and keep shields dropped to make the bioneural hit the hull. Overall on average, a beam array in that slot will do more damage than the bioneural in the time it takes the bioneural to reach its target.

Power settings you need to constantly shift to fit your needs.

Attack:

100 weapon, 25 shield, 25 engine the rest in aux. This is for when you're not aggroed and can just dish damage. Also very useful for fighting stuff you can just tank with your healing abilities..aka anything except the bosses.

Defense:
25 weapon, 80 shield, 80 engine rest in aux. This is the setting I use to fight bosses. I let my pets and team do the dps while I tank and pop nonstop disable engine/weapons/aux subsystem attacks.

The speed and 'balanced' presets I set for unique carrier needs.

The 'speed' setting i set to be my 'nonstop heal' setting. 25 weapon, 80 shield, 25 engine, 80 aux. Useful for healing others and for when you somehow gain the aggro of every NPC in the map.

The 'balance' preset is my 'launch stuff faster' seting.. 100 aux, wep shield at minimum, the rest in engine (at map starts it lets me get into position and have my fighter wings all out).
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg

Last edited by cmdrskyfaller; 07-16-2012 at 06:40 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 13
07-16-2012, 07:13 AM
I see your point, i guess i never paid it much attention, i just worked ways around their shocking AI, like keeping them recalled until i need them then having all 4 attack, then recall them, but i only use that to kill transformers in Infected and Probes in KA, so would you recommend not using any of the commands then? besides recall when needed.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 14
07-16-2012, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
An insane shield and hull tank ability. You have the best of all worlds to heal that behemoth of a ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
Finally.. you are not a cruiser, you are not an escort, you are not a science ship. You are not there to heal people or to take aggro.

You have all of that hull and shielding.

You have all of those heals available.

You're boasting "insane shield and hull tank ability"


Yet you're convinced you are not there to hold aggro, or heal/support the team?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 15
07-16-2012, 09:17 AM
I get your point, but i have (perhaps mistakenly) put skill into threat control to keep aggro off the weaker ships around me, as my build can tank against a tac cube, or donatra, or the gate with little or no trouble.
But i do understand people use carriers differently, they can be support ships, self-appointed battleships, sci-spammers, the list goes on.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 16
07-16-2012, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benj2293 View Post
I get your point, but i have (perhaps mistakenly) put skill into threat control to keep aggro off the weaker ships around me, as my build can tank against a tac cube, or donatra, or the gate with little or no trouble.
I disagree with his entire concept of how to use a carrier.

If you can tank, with threat control, then tank and ignore a concept that sees you wasting your massive survivability and/or healing powers to support a bunch of expendable living weapons that are designed to die and be re-summoned.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 17
07-16-2012, 10:48 AM
How is this wasting my survivability? I'm afraid what you said makes no sense to me, the weaker ships i was referring to are the escorts, sci ships and others that do more damage than i do, but usually can't take the pounding, while this does mean my BoPs are aggroed less, they're still targetted and killed more often than not, that wasn't my intention when i skilled it like that, my intention was rather than support ships, to take the damage that others couldn't, to let them deal the damage. It has worked successfully for me in over a hundred STF's and my Hull resists are significantly higher now, so it's useful in PVP aswell. Therefore, whether you agree or disagree, shall not affect my skill set-up. Even if i could change it, which i can't as i ran out of respec tokens.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 18
07-16-2012, 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benj2293 View Post
I get your point, but i have (perhaps mistakenly) put skill into threat control to keep aggro off the weaker ships around me, as my build can tank against a tac cube, or donatra, or the gate with little or no trouble.
But i do understand people use carriers differently, they can be support ships, self-appointed battleships, sci-spammers, the list goes on.
Its not really a mistake however if you want to fly other ships like a bird of prey that point in threat control can be... painful to have. Cruisers are the role tanks of the game and while your carrier can indeed take a pounding it has very little means to take aggro off much higher damage ships. In fact your pets will take the aggro not you the great majority of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
I disagree with his entire concept of how to use a carrier.

If you can tank, with threat control, then tank and ignore a concept that sees you wasting your massive survivability and/or healing powers to support a bunch of expendable living weapons that are designed to die and be re-summoned.
thats the problem with the current pet setup. The mentality it has pushed carriers into is that they are some sort of weapon that is to be fired once and it does its thing. Before the AI screwup change you could literally -BE- a carrier. Your pets could be ordered back and forth, could be ordered to fire on a target while your carrier dealt with a different target,etc etc. Most importantly, by commanding the pets the carrier could deliver either a very heavy alpha strike hit (bop 4x torpedo hitting same shield at once) or a heavy damage-over time weapon (toduj's under attack & recall cycle would do brutal damage compared to just letting them swarm around a target).

Right now the carrier is really just a cruiser that can equip different & higher damage versions of the scorpion fighters.

Quote:
You're boasting "insane shield and hull tank ability"


Yet you're convinced you are not there to hold aggro, or heal/support the team?
I was not aware he had a point in threat control. that alone lets him hold aggro. It has nothing to do with the carrier itself. The carrier that does not have it however cannot 'hold' aggro as escorts and cruisers take it away from him very quickly. Healing and supporting the team I meant is as in you should not spec your ship FOR that. Sure you can pop heals if you're not under attack to help out but you should not be putting extend shields and a bunch of insta-repair abilities just for healing others. A carrier that focuses on healing other ships ends up not managing his own damage output well enough (pets) and that hurts the team a lot more than losing one player for a few seconds...not to mention that MOST of the time the carrier is out of range of those other players (as in STFs) anyway.

Damage support and crowd control are imo is the main role of the carrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benj2293 View Post
I see your point, i guess i never paid it much attention, i just worked ways around their shocking AI, like keeping them recalled until i need them then having all 4 attack, then recall them, but i only use that to kill transformers in Infected and Probes in KA, so would you recommend not using any of the commands then? besides recall when needed.
In a nutshell here's what the pets will do under each order setting:

No orders: Pets will sit next to you as long as no one in your team is in combat. Aka only at start and end of a map. If your team-mates fire or are fired upon, the pets 'pick up' that target and head off to battle it.

Note that all the time you have no orders listed your carrier is still issuing 'attack my selected target' nonstop to your pets. This is the failed workaround the devs put in after they screwed the AI up. Therefore, when YOUR ship enters RED ALERT the pets will receive your target and go an and attack it (if pets are within 15km ..outside they'll usually do whatever the hell they want).

Attack order: Essentially does nothing other than allow you to send the pets to attack a target while you are not in red alert status since if you read above, the carrier sends 'attack my target' orders all the time even if you have no orders highlighted.

Intercept: pets target mines, torpedoes and small ships. This command is, ironically, the ONLY command the devs actually fixed 100% ...and even more ironically, nobody gave a crap about it before or after since its really useless.

Escort: As mentioned before, only will escort same-faction ships. However it is useless since the moment you stop targeting the friendly ship and target an enemy the pets switch to 'attack this' mode.

Recall: Does not reset target list of pets. Pets will stop in space, cloak (if they can) and travel back to carrier at minimum speed.


Personally, I only use attack when i want to send the pets to fight something that is far away from me (10km+). Anything inside 10km i leave the pets under no orders...they shoot what i have targeted anyways. I use Escort as a workaround to get my far-away (10km+) pets to return to my proximity by targeting myself or a kdf friendly thats near me..that way they zoom back rather than crawl back. Recall I only use to prevent pets from firing on things.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 19
07-16-2012, 12:31 PM
Thanks for this, taking your advice into account i should be able to improve how i use my carrier, heck my fleetmates already either fear it or know they can't defeat it, perhaps this will improve it so they all fear it lol. And by the way, we occasionally run Carrier only STF's in my fleet, if you ever want to join us for a match or more, then we'd be glad to have another one.
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