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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 27
# 11
07-26-2012, 11:05 PM
I have to agree with darienaven on the Fleet Qin, it deserves 4 stars. It's a straight upgrade from the free Qin. Passive hull repair from crew is next to worthless, especially on an escort. Since the Gumby is also a store ship, the Fleet Qin has more shields and more hull, and that extra eng console is perfect for adding an RCS console to improve the sluggish Qin due to the pivot point being towards the back. Already use an RCS? Great, you just got more armour or whatever else you want in that case.

Spot on with the Fleet Tor'Khat rating though, can't wait for my eng to upgrade from the Vorcha refit. It seems to me to have been designed as a damage dealer with more than enough self survival with the boff arrangement, definitely wouldn't set this one up as a healer / dmg hybrid like my current Vorcha though.

Last edited by bitterscot; 07-26-2012 at 11:09 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 74
# 12
07-27-2012, 01:51 AM
Thanks everyone for your comments so far. I plan to continue all the way to tier 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
1) the pro/con part
I would concentrate on relevant information: "+5 Weapon power/-5 engine power" simply equals out (its just a slight change in your power setup)
Well, my goal is to show everything and let players decide what aspects are important to them. Obviously things like Hull, Shields, and bridge slots are very important and most players who are able to afford these ships already know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
and other information simply sound to drastical: "-33% Crew size"...sounds dramatic, but a value that changes almost nothing. (A Bortasque has 3600 crew, a B'Rel 30 but if you compare them you would not write "-12000% Crew", would you? )
Obviously math is not your strong point. You would say -99.2% Crew. If you have -100% crew then you have no crew left at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
2) Ratings
2.1) IMO the Fleet-Qin should get 4 Stars, simply because it is the better ship if you compare it to the fleet scourge:
Well, if you look at the thread from earlier, I was going to give the Fleet Scourge a ** instead of a ***. I agree that the Fleet Qin is better than the Fleet Scourge but the problem is the rating of the Scourge which probably should be about 2.5 instead of 3, but I wanted to stick to whole numbers.

However, the Fleet Scourge loses the tac ensign in favour of an eng ensign, which is a big advantage. Even Qin lovers often agree that the extra tac ensign is kind of a waste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
Also it is a kind of "logical improvement": if you fly a Qin and love it, the Fleet Qin is a "must buy": it is simpy better in all aspects, so there is no reason not to buy it (except for the price of course!).
And the price is the issue. I used the Qin as a benchmark because it is the most similar ship, but you get the Qin for free at level 40 and you have to pay $20 for the Fleet Qin. A ship that costs $20 had better be an improvement over the free one just to make it worth spending the money. If the Fleet Qin was a free ship it would be **** for sure. but as it is a paid ship we turn it down a notch when benchmarking it against a free ship.

*** means that it is a decent buy and if you like that class of ship it is worth trying out.
**** means that it is a really good buy and you might want to consider the ship even if you don't normally fly that kind of ship. I don't think the Fleet Qin is at that point. If the Tac Ensign slot became a universal slot then it would also be **** for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
On the other hand if you fly a Garumba and love it, there is little to no reason to give it up for a Fleet Scourge: sure you get the additional console, but you lose the javelin for it.
Again there is the price issue. You already paid $20 for your Guramba. Are you going to pay another $20 for a ship class that you already basically have? I doubt it. But if you have neither the Guramba or the Scourge then there is a choice to make as to which you get and I can see some people choosing the Scourge, though I feel the Guramba is better. If a Fleet Guramba ever came out I would be all over that puppy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
2.2) The Regular Scourge retrofit is only 2 or even only 1 Star for me: there is simply no reason to buy it if you already have a Qin (Dont forget: a free ship!) or Garumba.
The regular Scourge Retrofit is also a free ship, so comparing it to a Guramba is a little foolish. Nobody who has a Guramba will bother with the regular Scourge even if it is free since they shelled out $20 for their Guramba. And if you have a Qin already you probably won't, but you might if you want a ship with an engineering ensign instead of a tac.

The real question is if you had neither a Qin nor a Scourge Retrofit, but were going to get one of the two, which would you get? There are reasons for getting either one, and fleet credits can be easier to earn than dilithium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
2.3) I don't see the Fleet somraw in such a bad shape.
In fact the additional Sci console almost even out the worse shield: put in a rare Mk.XI Field Generator and the diference is only a more or less marginal -4%.
So you fill the extra console slot with the most expensive console type in the game and the ship still isn't as good? My point stands that you should only get the Fleet Somraw if you think cloaking devices are really great. In my mind cloaks are nice but not that special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
The change in the ensign slot from tac to eng does not sound much but IMO it is: the tac eng is almost wastet.
I agree!

Funny that you didn't feel that way when talking about the Fleet Scourge. The Fleet Somraw is weaker than the Scourge and only gets a cloak to make up for it. I don't think this is a good trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eradicator84 View Post
Tor'Kaht = Vor'Cha old cstore skin. (pretty sure that was the only KDF cstore skin only unlock ever)
Also uses/unlocks Vor'Kang skin which is also purchasable in cstore. So a plus.
Thanks for this. I actually saw one flying around in the game and wondered if it was a Fleet ship so soon. I found the Spidermitch charts and it's on there, so that settles that... it also may nail the lid of the coffin on the idea that there might be a Fleet Vor'Cha. I guess the Tor'Kaht is it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eradicator84 View Post
Shame owning the cstore Vor'Kang doesn't give discount for Fleet Tor'Kaht. So that's a con.
I agree. I would suggest petitioning PWE but I know they don't speak Klingon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterscot View Post
I have to agree with darienaven on the Fleet Qin, it deserves 4 stars. It's a straight upgrade from the free Qin.
That's the point though. It's an upgrade that costs money. To break even it has to be better to compensate for what you're paying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterscot View Post
Since the Gumby is also a store ship, the Fleet Qin has more shields and more hull...
The Qin does have better stats in many areas, but of course it has no Javelin and only one engineer bridge slot. I think it comes down to playing style but the ships are comparable.

However, as I mentioned in my intro, a Fleet ship is more expensive than a Zen-Store ship. They both cost $20, but the Fleet ship also costs 20,000 fleet credits, and you need permission from your fleet leaders to get it. Meanwhile it only flies on one of your toons while if you pay for the Guramba all your KDF characters have one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterscot View Post
Spot on with the Fleet Tor'Khat rating though, can't wait for my eng to upgrade from the Vorcha refit. It seems to me to have been designed as a damage dealer with more than enough self survival with the boff arrangement, definitely wouldn't set this one up as a healer / dmg hybrid like my current Vorcha though.
Yes, thanks. I agree that this one is definitely on my shopping list.

Peet
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 74
# 13
07-27-2012, 02:00 AM
Tier 3 is now up and added to the original post. There's definitely some cool stuff in tier 3.

Peet
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
# 14
07-27-2012, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Obviously math is not your strong point. You would say -99.2% Crew. If you have -100% crew then you have no crew left at all.
Ooops
You are right: I just used the 3600/30 ratio = 120 and put an "-" before


Quote:
And the price is the issue. I used the Qin as a benchmark because it is the most similar ship, but you get the Qin for free at level 40 and you have to pay $20 for the Fleet Qin.
This is not a very valid argument, as you don't have to pay for c-Store/Zen Ships, asyou can always convert dilithium.
And a Qin is not free, you can only get one for free. It has a price of 120.000 dil or ~517 Zen (at the current rate). This is also roughly 4.50?/5$.

So to be fair you should be fair and translate all ships into the same currency: dil (or, as dil is capped at 8000/day, you can use "time needed to get one", so 15 days for a Qin etc.)

Even "free fleet ships" are not free: they usually cost around 200.000 fleet credits, and itnot only takes some time, it costs something (time, XP, Doffs, Creds, even dil) not only to get the fleet credits, but to develop the starbase.

And finally you should not use a 'kind act' of the developers (free ship every 10 levels or "ingame-items worth of 10$") against them.

You don't say "Oh, a bottle of Ouzo is worthless, because you get an ouzo for free everytime you eat in a greek restaurant", do you?

Quote:
So you fill the extra console slot with the most expensive console type in the game and the ship still isn't as good?
You are not serious are you? Blue MkXI (+17,5) can be crafted....

Quote:
Funny that you didn't feel that way when talking about the Fleet Scourge. The Fleet Somraw is weaker than the Scourge and only gets a cloak to make up for it. I don't think this is a good trade.
Scourge gets a sci, not an eng. ensign. This makes the Somraw better than the Scourge, IMHO.

But yes, I give the cloak a high value: in PvP it gives you the first strike, what IS a big advantage for an 'escort'

EDIT:

Oh, and you whole rating on "free vs. free" and "paid vs. paid" is a bit strange.
First you should compare it to any ship in a similar role and/or other ships in the same class.
The fleet corsair is better than the free corsair in every aspect (sure, you pay more for it) so it is strange to give the free version 5 stars, and the fleet version only 4.

... perhaps there should be two ratings: one simply based on performance, and one that compares the price in relation to the performance.

Simply because there are a lot of players were the price simply does not matter: either they have large amounts of dil or they don't bother to pay 20 bucks...

Last edited by darienavan; 07-27-2012 at 07:57 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 226
# 15
07-27-2012, 12:42 PM
I will still check out the K't'inga because of what it is, although I'm surprised and a little disappointed they didn't give it the Excelsior boff loadout, after all, it's gonna cost the same amount of Zen. The extra science console could translate to a third capacity console, so may not be as bad as it seems. The 11 turn could prove interesting as well.

Giving it a boff layout that already exists rather than one that's so far not in the KDF roster and was generally one we asked for seems either ignorant, or poorly reasoned, and more evidence of the divide between the people who code/come up with stats etc, and the player base. I think if they'd toned it's stats down further, they could've justified giving it battle cloak which would tally with a lot of what we saw them doing in TNG, DS9 and Voy (albeit a D7 that time). Instead it's in this awkward tier 4.5 sort of limbo.

I think the way they've made some of the fleet ships, especially KDF ones, not quite balanced up to par, is really something that ought to be reviewed once these ships have been around and tested for a bit.

Of course, if they'd made them available for testing on tribble like we'd asked, this wouldn't have happened. But as we all know, inspite of often ignored feedback threads, it's only purpose is for them to stress test new code. I'd advise people to just log in for the freebies and sneak peeks and save themselves some bother with it in future.

Last edited by ebeneezergoode; 07-27-2012 at 12:46 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 74
# 16
07-28-2012, 12:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
This is not a very valid argument, as you don't have to pay for c-Store/Zen Ships, asyou can always convert dilithium.
That's true, and that is what I do. But remember that the ships are still paid for - you are just trading your dilithium for Zen that someone else paid money for.

That's why it takes so much dilithium. Grinding out 500,000 dilithium to pay for one fleet ship can take a long, long time. It helps if you have lots of alts but it still takes a lot of time. Considering how much time it takes to earn I think it is fair to say that a ship that takes 2000 Zen plus 20,000 fleet credits to buy needs to be superior to one that you can get for free at level 40 to be a fair value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
And a Qin is not free, you can only get one for free.
How many Qins do you want?

Unless you are the type of player that has to have one of everything I think it's unlikely that these ships get bought very often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
It has a price of 120.000 dil or ~517 Zen (at the current rate). This is also roughly 4.50?/5$.
Yes, although it was about $3 three weeks ago. Dilithium has gone up considerably in value lately, which is good for us free players. Though as I mentioned before, how often are people actually buying these ships? Very rarely. It costs about the same amount to get two more character slots and then get different ships when you get to level 40.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
Even "free fleet ships" are not free: they usually cost around 200.000 fleet credits,
Naturally I am aware of this. But of course, most of the things that get you fleet credits can either be bought with EC or you can gather by playing. Fleet Marks are easy to earn and pay off big in terms of Fleet Credits, so if that was the only thing you bothered to contribute you could still earn enough to buy a ship in a week or less if you were online a lot. 4000 fleet marks gets you a fleet ship and I typically earn about 300 farming Nukara during a single 2-hour fleet event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
And finally you should not use a 'kind act' of the developers (free ship every 10 levels or "ingame-items worth of 10$") against them.
Who says I am against the Developers?

Simply put, some of these ships are great, and some are not so great. Since there are two price categories and one category is more expensive than the other, in my mind the more expensive ships need to be held to a higher standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
You don't say "Oh, a bottle of Ouzo is worthless, because you get an ouzo for free everytime you eat in a greek restaurant", do you?
You need to let me know what Greek restaurant you go to.

But of course even in that case you are paying for it the cost of it (as well as all the restaurant's other operating costs) are rolled into the price of your meal. Go in there for the free ouzo and then don't order any food, and see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
You are not serious are you? Blue MkXI (+17,5) can be crafted....
In which case you pay a pile of Dilithium instead that maybe you were saving to convert to Zen, and forces you to consume some data that you could have sold for tons of EC. So yes, that's not a great deal, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
Scourge gets a sci, not an eng. ensign. This makes the Somraw better than the Scourge, IMHO.
You are right, it's the non-fleet Scourge that gets the Eng Ensign. Of course it all depends on who you are fighting. Against the Borg I'd much rather have the extra sci so I could double up on hazard emitters and still have some other sci ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
But yes, I give the cloak a high value: in PvP it gives you the first strike, what IS a big advantage for an 'escort'
Typically I find it takes my enemies less than a second to respond to my 'surprise attack,' and while I do a high DPS as an escort I certainly am not good enough to kill someone in a single second of attacking. If you can then that's great for you, but if that's the case you probably can still do very well without the cloak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
EDIT:

Oh, and you whole rating on "free vs. free" and "paid vs. paid" is a bit strange.
First you should compare it to any ship in a similar role and/or other ships in the same class.
I do this already. That's why I bechmark them against ships of the same type. If you want me to do a comparison against every similar ship, well, I simply don't have time. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
The fleet corsair is better than the free corsair in every aspect (sure, you pay more for it) so it is strange to give the free version 5 stars, and the fleet version only 4.
The Fleet Corsair is better than the non-fleet version. But not by enough considering the higher price. Don't get me wrong, the Fleet Corsair is still great, but it's not as good a value as the non-fleet version. Note the title of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
... perhaps there should be two ratings: one simply based on performance, and one that compares the price in relation to the performance.
This article is the latter. If you wish to do one that is the former, go ahead. I do not have the time to do two sets of reviews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darienavan View Post
Simply because there are a lot of players were the price simply does not matter: either they have large amounts of dil or they don't bother to pay 20 bucks...
If money is no object for you then please go to the Zen store and buy me 10,000 Zen. If you do that I will be happy to rewrite this review any way you like.

On the other hand, for those players who spend months grinding out the dilithium they need to make the Zen to buy a ship may want to know if what they are spending their dilithium is worth it. That is the entire purpose of this review.

It seems like you want a review of which ships are simply the most effective. That's not why I'm writing this, but I'll give you a hint: The ones that are more expensive are generally better.

Peet
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 571
# 17
07-30-2012, 10:19 AM
After captaining the Fleet Qin for a few days now, I am beginning to suspect that it has a bit of a bug... in practice it is far, far squishier than its published statistics might suggest. I have to re-purchase a base Qin and move my gear back to it to determine if it is in fact doing as advertized.

I'm also seeking advice to see if this is in fact a combination of a display bug, should it prove that the data displayed when inspecting the ship is the 10% better in the published data.

My growing suspicion is that behind the scenes, it is in fact behaving as though it has the Fleet Somraw hull and shield multiplier. I hope I'm wrong, but I am most definitely NOT feeling 10% heartier in this ship. Even the DPS feels diminished.

Note: this is exclusively based on anecdotal evidence at this point, during Fleet missions. It is possible that either those have gotten tougher, or have changed in some way to make it more difficult, and this happened as I got into my Fleet Qin.
Wampaq@Jnoh, Fleet Leader: ..Bloodbath and Beyond 'Iw HaH je Hoch!
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A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome.
Send in-game mail to Wampaq@Jnoh, visit our recruitment thread and FB page for more info.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 74
# 18
08-02-2012, 05:39 PM
Tier 4 and 5 are up, but I seem to have hit a character limit so I started a new thread for tiers 4 & 5 here:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...01#post5103501

Interesting point about the Qin, though it can be hard to judge it without a direct comparison. You should try doing PvP with a friend and have them do exactly the same thing while you use the two different ships.

Peet

Last edited by smi3th; 08-02-2012 at 06:30 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,122
# 19
08-06-2012, 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebeneezergoode View Post
I will still check out the K't'inga because of what it is, although I'm surprised and a little disappointed they didn't give it the Excelsior boff loadout, after all, it's gonna cost the same amount of Zen. The extra science console could translate to a third capacity console, so may not be as bad as it seems. The 11 turn could prove interesting as well.

Giving it a boff layout that already exists rather than one that's so far not in the KDF roster and was generally one we asked for seems either ignorant, or poorly reasoned, and more evidence of the divide between the people who code/come up with stats etc, and the player base. I think if they'd toned it's stats down further, they could've justified giving it battle cloak which would tally with a lot of what we saw them doing in TNG, DS9 and Voy (albeit a D7 that time). Instead it's in this awkward tier 4.5 sort of limbo.

I think the way they've made some of the fleet ships, especially KDF ones, not quite balanced up to par, is really something that ought to be reviewed once these ships have been around and tested for a bit.

Of course, if they'd made them available for testing on tribble like we'd asked, this wouldn't have happened. But as we all know, inspite of often ignored feedback threads, it's only purpose is for them to stress test new code. I'd advise people to just log in for the freebies and sneak peeks and save themselves some bother with it in future.
You know ... I love my Fleet K'T'inga. Mine has done consistently well against fleetmates in PvP matches.

Love it. Love it. Love it.

A HUGE thank you to Cryptic for the Mogh-class battle cruiser!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 74
# 20
08-07-2012, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by genhauk View Post
You know ... I love my Fleet K'T'inga. Mine has done consistently well against fleetmates in PvP matches.

Love it. Love it. Love it.
Perhaps you can check for us if the Fleet K'Tinga's stats really are as published. The listed stats show it as slightly inferior to the Vor'Cha retrofit; the only positive change being a small turn rate boost and an extra console.

Also, do you fly a Vor'Cha Retrofit? If so perhaps you can share the play differences in the two ships.

Peet
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