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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,213
I like one-on-one fights. And I believe 1v1 is a legitimate way to test game mechanics and builds within them.

But you all know what happens when two ships 1v1 and not at least one of them is an escort: It takes forever, possibly terminates never. However, if one or both ships are escorts, it terminates eventually. It may also terminate with some sci builds on either side (such as a power drain build), but those are rather exceptional.

This is true in PvP - and if the PvE ships in this game were equipped with an AI that actually uses the game mechanics, it would also be true in PvE.

The latter is a serious problem, because it essentially sais that all the missions (which are usually played in single player mode) in this game are playable only because the opponents are incompetent.

Now why is that the case? Why do only escorts seem to be able to defeat any opponent? shouldn't the "glass cannons" be beatbale with the firepower of a cruiser, making the cruiser vs escort fight not as one-sided? Shouldn't, in fact, cruisers be able to defeat cruisers after some time? Why are they not?

The reason is, I believe, the strength of healing bridge officer abilities: Even an escort can easily heal away any bleedthrough from a cruiser's guns with Hazard Emitters, and stabilize its shields with Emergency Power to Shields (two copies, of course). And a cruiser can almost heal away an escort's damage, so it can much more heal away another cruiser's.

So, to solve this, should all the healing powers be reduced in healing, (possibly increased in resistance granted by them at the same time), so that even a cruiser vs cruiser fight will eventually terminate?

Please discuss.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 2
07-23-2012, 01:40 AM
Now imagine what you propose, and put it in 5v5 situation.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 887
# 3
07-23-2012, 03:23 AM
I remember back in the early days lots of complaining about the escorts being glass cannons. Mostly by people who didn't get that a DPS dealing monster that can tank, is a bad idea when it comes to balance.

Anyway, long story short, when cryptic buffed every ships hull and shields based on the skill table, it pushed escorts out of their danger zone. True, they still can't tank as well as a cruiser, but they can come damn close if flown correctly with the right powers. Also, unlike cruisers, they don't have to sacrifice the majority of their tact powers to take tactical team.

As for cruisers, earlier in the games life 1v1's between them did come to an end. As long as both weren't stacking RSPs.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 4
07-23-2012, 05:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Now why is that the case? Why do only escorts seem to be able to defeat any opponent? shouldn't the "glass cannons" be beatbale with the firepower of a cruiser, making the cruiser vs escort fight not as one-sided? Shouldn't, in fact, cruisers be able to defeat cruisers after some time? Why are they not?
Escorts are "beatable" by cruisers. In fact if two capable people who know what they're doing are in either ship, my money's on the cruiser every time. He'll eventually just win by attrition.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 5
07-23-2012, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Escorts are "beatable" by cruisers. In fact if two capable people who know what they're doing are in either ship, my money's on the cruiser every time. He'll eventually just win by attrition.
Exactly this.
OP, if you have a problem killing an escort then its one of two things;
1) your opponent outclasses you you in build or skill
2) or you have too much Tank and not enough Spank in your build.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,193
# 6
07-23-2012, 07:42 AM
My approach would be that all matches get a timer, and if you live through the timer, either it's who got the most kills, or it's a stale mate.

A more elaborate solution that will never make it into this game would be to introduce a "long-term healing resource" that is sharply limited. SOmething like Healing Surges in the 4th Edition of Dungeons and Dragons.

Everytime you receive hull healing you spend these points out of some kind of "reserve pool" (maybe we should call it "spare parts".
The reserve pool may be something like 20 times your normal hit points or more (with this game's healing and damage values, it could maybe still be a magnitude off).

The reserve pool refreshes only in sector space, or after a respawn.
You could also have it refresh slowly when not at red alert. That could lead to interesting gameplay where people retreat battles and try to refresh out of combat. But it could also lead to too many delays.

The alternative, trying to fix current damage, healing and resistance values, is a giant undertaking that I don't see Cryptic really pulling off.

Last edited by mustrumridcully0; 07-23-2012 at 07:47 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 7
07-23-2012, 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
I like one-on-one fights. And I believe 1v1 is a legitimate way to test game mechanics and builds within them.

But you all know what happens when two ships 1v1 and not at least one of them is an escort: It takes forever, possibly terminates never. However, if one or both ships are escorts, it terminates eventually. It may also terminate with some sci builds on either side (such as a power drain build), but those are rather exceptional.

This is true in PvP - and if the PvE ships in this game were equipped with an AI that actually uses the game mechanics, it would also be true in PvE.

The latter is a serious problem, because it essentially sais that all the missions (which are usually played in single player mode) in this game are playable only because the opponents are incompetent.

Now why is that the case? Why do only escorts seem to be able to defeat any opponent? shouldn't the "glass cannons" be beatbale with the firepower of a cruiser, making the cruiser vs escort fight not as one-sided? Shouldn't, in fact, cruisers be able to defeat cruisers after some time? Why are they not?

The reason is, I believe, the strength of healing bridge officer abilities: Even an escort can easily heal away any bleedthrough from a cruiser's guns with Hazard Emitters, and stabilize its shields with Emergency Power to Shields (two copies, of course). And a cruiser can almost heal away an escort's damage, so it can much more heal away another cruiser's.

So, to solve this, should all the healing powers be reduced in healing, (possibly increased in resistance granted by them at the same time), so that even a cruiser vs cruiser fight will eventually terminate?

Please discuss.
I tried to show you how to kill things, and I wasn't in an escort. You saw it was me in the private queue and left, then ignored my tells, then posted a link to this thread in OPVP. So you clearly felt the meta-game here on the forum was more important than the actual game.

Why do you run a defensive build with abysmal offensive ability, then use it as a "talking point" that the game is broken?

It's been stated many times that the game is not balanced for 1v1, and to do so would unbalance it for 5v5. There is no compelling reason to change this.

There is also no compelling reason to shoot at your failure of a carrier in 5v5, except perhaps to get you to burn all your heals on yourself. It's not a threat, even though it can soak damage 1v1. But I'm not the first to say this to you.

That said, Escorts are not the only ones who can kill things. I will blow you out of the sky using your namesake. Assuming of course you don't run from the match like you did earlier.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 438
# 8
07-23-2012, 08:38 AM
Your once again thinking in terms of 1v1 when pvp balance is designed around TEAM play.

First off, supplementing mitigation healing for regen healing nets the same result if balanced. I think what they ought to do is seperate regen healing from resistance healing. TSS3's regen AND resistance is crazy to have in one power. Split powers up so you have to burn to abilities to give both hitpoints and hardening. For instance, slightly buff auxtosif's resistance but take away regen. Do the opposite for HE. for shields do the same thing for extend and TSS.

Boosting cruiser damage to accommodate 1v1's is a terrible idea that would screw balance.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,527
# 9
07-23-2012, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
I tried to show you how to kill things, and I wasn't in an escort. You saw it was me in the private queue and left, then ignored my tells, then posted a link to this thread in OPVP. So you clearly felt the meta-game here on the forum was more important than the actual game.

Why do you run a defensive build with abysmal offensive ability, then use it as a "talking point" that the game is broken?
He didn't like the way our 1v1 (Web Engi/Vor'quv vs Sophlogomo's Tac/Assault Cruiser) went. Especially when The Engi/Vor'quv out damaged the Tac/ASsault Cruiser.
Case in point Note where he's asking for it to be a Draw? Yeah that was right around after he ran away the first time asking for one when I dropped him to 17% hull. An Engi/Vor'quv. *Pets Bop Pets*

Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
It's been stated many times that the game is not balanced for 1v1, and to do so would unbalance it for 5v5. There is no compelling reason to change this.

There is also no compelling reason to shoot at your failure of a carrier in 5v5, except perhaps to get you to burn all your heals on yourself. It's not a threat, even though it can soak damage 1v1. But I'm not the first to say this to you.

That said, Escorts are not the only ones who can kill things. I will blow you out of the sky using your namesake. Assuming of course you don't run from the match like you did earlier.
Yep. This game is not balanced for 1v1. And yet he continues to try to bring more and more spot light on the games "issues" because of 1v1 as an example.

Oh and btw, Sophlogimo, you never stated before our 1v1 you wanted to test a build, or try something new out. If you had said those things before hand, I would have been MORE then willing to let you make your tests and been very light hearted about it. But allas, you didn't. And now we have yet another useless thread started by you because you don't yet have your build tweeked optimally for what you consider the real way to PVP, and that's 1v1.

IF you want to PVP 1v1, Enter Silvar's tournament. I did it First season, it was kinda fun. I'll probobly do it again in Season 3.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 979
# 10
07-23-2012, 11:28 AM
id like to see a everyman for him self maybe a 10player map its something that we have havnt seen in sto yet
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