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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 21
07-23-2012, 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Are you guys actually saying that in fact all fights do terminate? Because that is factually wrong. How many times have you seen cruiser vs. cruiser fights end in a draw?
Shouldn't the question be the opposite one ? How many times did we see a cruiser vs. cruiser end NOT in a draw ?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,455
# 22
07-23-2012, 10:02 PM
No they shouldn't. Certain ships/captains can hone for damage to pontentionally win a 1v1 vs anyone. But, there are other roles to fill which won't win a 1v1, but can turn a 5v5. In the past things like well timed SNBs/PSWs were needed to debuff a target/counter ES. ES et al was needed to counter spike damage. Unfortunately, this type of balance has been fading for some time.

The real issue is when in 5v5 support roles aren't needed b/c P2W items (ship buffs and or consoles buffs) fill those roles. Lotto escorts can be boosted to over 50K hp and have solid repair boff/doffs/borg partial to the point they have spares for allies. Stacking plas leech can drop subsystems passively lowering the need for Sci debuffs. Which makes 1 ship = 1 DPS and 2/3 Debuff + 2/3 Repair roles arguably.

Also, regular balancing is often out of whack. The phaser procs in many ways made many sci debuffs redundant, polaron stacking is now filling this role. Shield Dist Doff still gives more HoT than TSS3 last I checked. Warp Core Engineers give +25 power to all systems (add plas leech and you can ignore a lot of the Eng Skill Tree for skill point investment). Let's not get started on pet procs/debuffing ...
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,000
# 23
07-23-2012, 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Shouldn't the question be the opposite one ? How many times did we see a cruiser vs. cruiser end NOT in a draw ?
Well, with two competent captains, what is your answer to that question?
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 24
07-23-2012, 11:26 PM
I have never seen a winner in competent 1v1 cruiser fight. They simply lack the burst to bring the other down.

Last edited by dalnar83; 07-23-2012 at 11:31 PM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 543
# 25
07-23-2012, 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddog0000doom View Post
id like to see a everyman for him self ... its something that we have havnt seen in sto yet
PuGs do it all the time.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,201
# 26
07-24-2012, 02:22 AM
2 competant cruisers going at it would never end unless something like luck or lapse in judgement kicks in.

1 v 1 is definately not a legitimate way of testing game mechanics. It totaly avoids the posibility of various people buff stacking to achieve a kill or save. My 1 v 1 build would be completely different to a team build setup.
1 v 1 = zombie cruiser, multiplayer = support cruiser.

Like Husanak said, this is an MMO in the end.

By all means ask for a 1 v 1 que, but dont call it a legitimate way of testing game mechanics.

PS is this thread going to turn into your other thread?
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles

Last edited by naz4; 07-24-2012 at 02:32 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,538
# 27
07-24-2012, 03:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
Thanks to those few who actually cared to read the original post and replied to it and did not try to make some ad hominem childishness.

Are you guys actually saying that in fact all fights do terminate? Because that is factually wrong. How many times have you seen cruiser vs. cruiser fights end in a draw?
ive proboly killed as many cruisers 1 on 1 as i have bops, in a cruiser. 2 star cruisers with eng captains will never kill each other of course, but its very possible for a sufficiently tactical cruiser to kill any other type of cruiser.

sure, at least 80% of those kills were on people who weren't smart enough to distribute shields, all the way up to chain RSPers that have some skill, and at the very least high RSP up time. ive gotten plenty of talented cruiser kills though too. for every one of those i can take down eventually, there is another that i cant, and is good enough to take me down.

for a cruiser to kill another cruiser, this is what i have found works. first of all, tac captain, in a tactical focused cruiser like the excelsior or vorcha. tac odysseys and bortas can be brutal as well, but they generally cant do more then lay down beam fire with their mobility.

the tet glider, and preferably a weapon type buffed by flow caps, or phasers. even though its been nerfed prety low, its only a mater of time before your pressure damage leaves your opponent down to nothing but slivers, then you can go for the kill.

the more maneuverable cruisers like the excelsior and vorcha can effectively use warp plasma as a snare, and a damage dealer. its not hard to get the cloud to deal between 500-800 plasma energy damage strait to the hull a second when you buff it with maxed particle generators and tactical buffs.

what about HE? well if they blew it then they cant use it later. this is also why you carry a tracter beam. if they try to leave the cloud max your aux and hold them in it. if they cant leave the cloud you can use the tractor after the plasma movement debuff has ended. these snares are brutal, every shot you fire hits, and criticals are more common. even with your cruiser you are dealing more damage then your opponent can easily counter, and you've thrown his healing into disarray. DEM, FOMM, and APB are perfect complements to the plasma snare.

now for weapons, the excelsior can fairly effectively use single cannons and 2 copies of CRF. this can do pretty devastating damage to fellow cruisers,to say nothing about how it rips up escorts and bops, especially when combined with the glider damage, and phaser, tetryon and polaron proc. hell plasma would be great too, if only. i can see the disrupter proc aiding in the bleed damage effectiveness as well. if you go the single cannon rout, there will be times were you have almost no effectiveness, harassment from multiple escorts basically shuts you down, with beams at least you can focus on survival and have them be shooting at near peek efficiency at all times.

a vorcha with DHC is actually easier to fly then a single cannon excelsior in my opinion, and gets quicker results. its base turn rate is high enough that turn rate consoles have a dramatic effect on how well you can turn. use between 2 or 3 here. you can also run a DBB with BO1 and CRF for legitimate spike damage. ive gotten over 10k damage from BO1 MANY times, especially when i have my opponent snared. the problem is, again, you cant out maneuver escorts. but you can certainly snare them and kick them wile they are down hard. chances are an escort wont have both PH and HE, and they cant use both at the same time

8 beam arrays are just as viable, as long as you forget about FAW. 2 copies of BO are what you need, and work great for driving the effect of your high pressure damage home. yes even a BO from a beam array can be devastating, as long as it happens every 15 second. in most situations your going to want to run them over the more tempting cannon choices.

ive killed hundreds of cruisers with these tactics, that includes well flown cruisers. you wont be able to kill them all, but you could say the same thing about an escort. except the bug. the bug is unbeatable if the user knows what hes doing.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 28
07-24-2012, 04:28 AM
Cruisers vs Cruiser .... yes it should always be a draw.

If you where in any other MMO and said healer vs healer who wins... the answer is simple. No one.

Its not that those of us you choose to ignore... don't understand what you are saying.

You are simpley WRONG.

The game is supposed to have draw classes.

In the design of any Holy Trinity MMO... of which STO is one of them.

Healer Vs Healer = Draw.

CC Vs CC... will also mosty be a draw.

Assuming neither is incompetent. I fully understand what you are arguing, you are simply not taking into account that at its core STO is a MMO, like it or not.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 99
# 29
07-24-2012, 07:37 AM
Yes, Star Trek should be balanced around 1 v 1. I'm in sincere agreement, it's only canon.

This is such a novel idea that we've never discussed before here in the PVP forums. How could Cryptic miss such an obvious thing as non-escort-1v1 balance?

This is a good honest conversation and you trolls should just keep out of it.

Also, we need to bring about the Quirky idEa of Wheelchairs in STO. I miss the color red...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,201
# 30
07-24-2012, 08:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gx4th23 View Post
Yes, Star Trek should be balanced around 1 v 1. I'm in sincere agreement, it's only canon.

This is such a novel idea that we've never discussed before here in the PVP forums. How could Cryptic miss such an obvious thing as non-escort-1v1 balance?

This is a good honest conversation and you trolls should just keep out of it.

Also, we need to bring about the Quirky idEa of Wheelchairs in STO. I miss the color red...
Trolling by calling others Trolls....lol Epic buddy!
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
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