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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,247
# 41
07-25-2012, 05:19 PM
FAW isnt it just blindly firing in all directions? Seems to me that is should be able to strike a cloaked vessel by chance (espeically if its close to an uncloaked targetable whatever)... as should csv.

By the way... I like the test results posts! Lets put some solid numbers and testing before anything gets changed. If it is working as intended dont change it!

The Pin Target thing... yeah it's broke... tested it with a friend... he could cloak all he wanted i still knew where he was).
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 476
# 42
07-25-2012, 06:33 PM
Been running into this 'pin' issue. Even lol'd it and tested and made some fraps. It cannot be the intended function. kthx
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,525
# 43
07-25-2012, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post

As for FAW... I'm honestly unable to come up with any scenario in which FAW will successfully target an enemy that I cannot detect. If Mavairo (or anyone else) has posted test videos illustrating the circumstances that cause this, I'm afraid I did not see them and would appreciate another link.

The power is flagged to require the caster to be able to Perceive the target. Put simply, if your Perception score doesn't "win" against an enemy's Stealth score, then the perception check on powers such as this will fail and prevent the power from targeting that enemy.

Here's a description of my latest testing:


TEST #1
* Cloaked target at the edge of perception range. Uncloaked target directly next to it.
* Set Aux high, can perceive. Set Aux low, cannot perceive.
* Starting with Aux high, activate FAW and begin a firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits both Targets.
* Immediately reduce Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually drops to the point that I can no longer perceive the target. At this point, FAW stops hitting the cloaked target for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.


TEST #2:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception
* Starting with Aux low, activate FAW and begin firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits single target.
* Immediately increase Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually rises to the point that I can perceive the 2nd target. At this point, FAW immediately begins hitting both targets for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.


TEST #3 and #4:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception
* Set cloaked target as Focus Target
* Test with both Aux low and rising, and then Aux high and falling.
* Results of both tests were same as Test #1 and #2, respectively. Focus Target appears to have no bearing on FAW target selection.


Admittedly, these are limited tests. But this is purposeful in order to eliminate variables that cannot be easily accounted for or quantified. Scientific method, and all that jazz. If there is an additional variable that needs to be considered, I'm open to additional testing. But I need solid info, not more anecdotal evidence.

when your aux was high enough to hit the cloaked target, could you also see the cloaked target, and select it? if FAW is hitting targets below the threshold were you can actually select the target, thats the problem.

im assuming this was shooting at test dummies, so they might always be selectable or something. doing this test against actual player ship might be needed. im sure many on opvp would oblige.

1 thought of 1 variable, doesn't the jemhadar deflector have a stealth sight bonus? i think it was the jemhadar deflector. maybe thats boosting stealth sight enough for faw to hit cloaked targets, but that stealth isn't being applied so you can actually see the cloaked ship yourself

i'll turn on fraps later and see if i can fly around cloaked when the 2 teams start to clash. it will be clear when im undetected, because the enemy team wouldn't miss the opportunity to blast the crap out of me if they clash and im suddenly decloaked by FAW, wile i was previously undetected, well there ya go.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 175
# 44
07-25-2012, 06:52 PM
Further testing live with some of the PVP crew has been unable to get this issue to appear under controlled circumstances. If we can get a step-by-step list that indicates a procedure that will cause this to happen every time, we can debug from there. In the meantime we haven't been able to get this to show up internally and we didn't see it in live testing earlier today.

EDIT: Specifically the issue of FAW targeting cloaked vessels -- the issue with focus remaining on cloaked ships has been tracked down.

If you are able to get this to happen, we need to know exactly:
* Which version of FAW you used (1, 2, 3)
* How many levels your BOFF had in this FAW skill (probably 9, but make sure!)
* Which ship you used
* Which ship you hit that was cloaked
* Any other ships that were involved
* The relative locations of all ships involved (e.g. the cloaked ship was ahead of you and in between your ship and the uncloaked enemy, or the cloaked ship was behind you while the uncloaked enemy was ahead of you)
* Whether you had focus pinned on anyone
* Whether you had any allies, and whether they could see the cloaked ship
* Whether you used any power or ability that would increase your perception, such as Sensor Scan or an auxiliary power battery
* Whether anyone involved was moving, or if this happened while all ships were stationary
* Which weapon type you were using (phaser, disruptor, etc.; and beam array, dual beam bank, etc.)

If you are able to get this to happen repeatably, please let us know and we'll see if we can reproduce it. Bugs that we can't reproduce are very difficult to fix, because there is no way to know what causes them.

Thanks for your assistance.

Last edited by jheinig; 07-25-2012 at 07:03 PM.
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 558
# 45
07-25-2012, 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
Further testing live with some of the PVP crew has been unable to get this issue to appear under controlled circumstances. If we can get a step-by-step list that indicates a procedure that will cause this to happen every time, we can debug from there. In the meantime we haven't been able to get this to show up internally and we didn't see it in live testing earlier today.

If you are able to get this to happen, we need to know exactly:
* Which version of FAW you used (1, 2, 3)
* How many levels your BOFF had in this FAW skill (probably 9, but make sure!)
* Which ship you used
* Which ship you hit that was cloaked
* Any other ships that were involved
* The relative locations of all ships involved (e.g. the cloaked ship was ahead of you and in between your ship and the uncloaked enemy, or the cloaked ship was behind you while the uncloaked enemy was ahead of you)
* Whether you had focus pinned on anyone
* Whether you had any allies, and whether they could see the cloaked ship
* Whether you used any power or ability that would increase your perception, such as Sensor Scan or an auxiliary power battery
* Whether anyone involved was moving, or if this happened while all ships were stationary
* Which weapon type you were using (phaser, disruptor, etc.; and beam array, dual beam bank, etc.)

If you are able to get this to happen repeatably, please let us know and we'll see if we can reproduce it. Bugs that we can't reproduce are very difficult to fix, because there is no way to know what causes them.

Thanks for your assistance.
To expand upon this I would like to repeat the test I did previously.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHpKFZs7z8k&feature=plcp I am going to need the original participants and we will walk through what happened step by step.

Also, anyone that does find this bug and gets it to repeat, Please Record This On Fraps! that way they have visual proof, as well, as details that text might miss. A picture is worth 1k words, a video is worth 30k easy.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 476
# 46
07-25-2012, 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I've been able to send solid 100% repro steps on the Focus Target + Cloak issue to our Software guys. Hopefully we'll find a solution to that one quickly. In other news, I also just received a note from QA that the "Blue HUD for KDF" issue may be easily repro'd. And "easily repro'd" frequently means "easily fixed."

As for FAW... I'm honestly unable to come up with any scenario in which FAW will successfully target an enemy that I cannot detect. If Mavairo (or anyone else) has posted test videos illustrating the circumstances that cause this, I'm afraid I did not see them and would appreciate another link.

The power is flagged to require the caster to be able to Perceive the target. Put simply, if your Perception score doesn't "win" against an enemy's Stealth score, then the perception check on powers such as this will fail and prevent the power from targeting that enemy.

Here's a description of my latest testing:


TEST #1
* Cloaked target at the edge of perception range. Uncloaked target directly next to it.
* Set Aux high, can perceive. Set Aux low, cannot perceive.
* Starting with Aux high, activate FAW and begin a firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits both Targets.
* Immediately reduce Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually drops to the point that I can no longer perceive the target. At this point, FAW stops hitting the cloaked target for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.


TEST #2:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception
* Starting with Aux low, activate FAW and begin firing cycle.
-- RESULT: First pulse hits single target.
* Immediately increase Aux power.
-- RESULT: As firing cycle continues, Aux eventually rises to the point that I can perceive the 2nd target. At this point, FAW immediately begins hitting both targets for the remainder of the Firing Cycle.


TEST #3 and #4:
* Same target placement
* Same Aux-based perception
* Set cloaked target as Focus Target
* Test with both Aux low and rising, and then Aux high and falling.
* Results of both tests were same as Test #1 and #2, respectively. Focus Target appears to have no bearing on FAW target selection.


Admittedly, these are limited tests. But this is purposeful in order to eliminate variables that cannot be easily accounted for or quantified. Scientific method, and all that jazz. If there is an additional variable that needs to be considered, I'm open to additional testing. But I need solid info, not more anecdotal evidence.

I haven't noticed shnizz with faw. It's the fact that escorts/cruisers can pin a target (off mines or self-targets.)If they are cloaked, they can see distance and buffs even if they are 20-40km+++++ away. So if a escort pins a target (a bop as example) and they battle cloak and fly 15km away they can watch their distance and fly retarded to find them. Same is true for defiants. I was following one around earlier out of curiosity. You can argue, WELL maybe your bop should be faster, but I wouldn't be pulling from the fight if my bop wasn't screwed, so screw the haters. J/S

They can see your buffs, so they can prepare before you act, ect ect. This cannot be the intended function. Like targetting threatening enemies first, set focus should change focus or send an alert of a part. Not follow them anywhere they go around a map.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,137
# 47
07-25-2012, 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtremenoob1 View Post
This cannot be the intended function.
It is not. And as I confirmed previously, a fix is in the works.
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Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 48
07-25-2012, 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
It is not. And as I confirmed previously, a fix is in the works.
YAY!

after reading the previous posts im still a little confused, which issue is being fixed? the FAW decloak or the pinning cloaked targets or the pets chasing cloaked targets?

thanks
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 175
# 49
07-25-2012, 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
YAY!

after reading the previous posts im still a little confused, which issue is being fixed? the FAW decloak or the pinning cloaked targets or the pets chasing cloaked targets?

thanks
Pinned target/cloak interaction. We do not yet have a case of repeatable steps for FAW against cloaked targets.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,525
# 50
07-25-2012, 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
Further testing live with some of the PVP crew has been unable to get this issue to appear under controlled circumstances. If we can get a step-by-step list that indicates a procedure that will cause this to happen every time, we can debug from there. In the meantime we haven't been able to get this to show up internally and we didn't see it in live testing earlier today.

If you are able to get this to happen, we need to know exactly:
* Which version of FAW you used (1, 2, 3)
* How many levels your BOFF had in this FAW skill (probably 9, but make sure!)
* Which ship you used
* Which ship you hit that was cloaked
* Any other ships that were involved
* The relative locations of all ships involved (e.g. the cloaked ship was ahead of you and in between your ship and the uncloaked enemy, or the cloaked ship was behind you while the uncloaked enemy was ahead of you)
* Whether you had focus pinned on anyone
* Whether you had any allies, and whether they could see the cloaked ship
* Whether you used any power or ability that would increase your perception, such as Sensor Scan or an auxiliary power battery
* Whether anyone involved was moving, or if this happened while all ships were stationary
* Which weapon type you were using (phaser, disruptor, etc.; and beam array, dual beam bank, etc.)

If you are able to get this to happen repeatably, please let us know and we'll see if we can reproduce it. Bugs that we can't reproduce are very difficult to fix, because there is no way to know what causes them.

Thanks for your assistance.
i hope im not wasting your time claiming i saw a wolf by the sheep, or kdf players by fed players . the first time i was sure it happened was right after season 6, i was sure it was from faw. i recall at least 1 other person mention it happening to them too on this forum.

here's what i remember from the first incident, the only incident im really 'sure' about

i was in a cloaked vorcha R with 43 aux, 0 into stealth, 0 stealth consoles, with ether the omega or borg deflector

~7 units directly behind an odyssey of some kind, all its team mates were in front of it

1 got behind them all wile cloaked to attack from behind as the non cloakers on my team attacked up front

battle begins, every one starts shooting but me because im still cloaked

i see the odyssey hit targets the way faw does, and a shot flys back and hits me, decloaking me, at 6-7 range away.

i don't recall seeing the odyssey use any sci captain skills, or EPtA, which gives a stealth sight bonus for 5 seconds


doubt thats enough to go bug hunting with, but i don't see what else it could possibly have been. i would have noticed if it was a mine that exploded and decloaked me, unless it didn't draw and the sound effect didn't go off for some reason. both teams had just fully opened up on each other then, but ive never had a problem with stuff not drawing in pvp before.


on another FAW note, we believe that acc mods are not effecting the accuracy of FAW, and BO corectly, or at all. it would be cool if it was double checked!
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 07-25-2012 at 07:27 PM.
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