Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 867
# 21
07-25-2012, 11:39 AM
The OP is rude, but correct about the directions. They always refer to directions on the ship using naval terminology.


Cardinal directions are based off of a 2-diminsional approximation of a planet's surface with respect to its axis (polar coordinates). Space is three dimensional and on the show they use spherical coordinates and do not name the cardinal direction. The spherical coordinates seem to use a division other than degrees (perhaps grads or 1/1000's). It is not clear if the frame of reference is the ship or the center of the galaxy, or both.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,679
# 22
07-25-2012, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalspock View Post
The OP is rude, but correct about the directions. They always refer to directions on the ship using naval terminology.


Cardinal directions are based off of a 2-diminsional approximation of a planet's surface with respect to its axis (polar coordinates). Space is three dimensional and on the show they use spherical coordinates and do not name the cardinal direction. The spherical coordinates seem to use a division other than degrees (perhaps grads or 1/1000's). It is not clear if the frame of reference is the ship or the center of the galaxy, or both.
But... STO isnt 3D...? It's 2.5D
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 315
# 23
07-25-2012, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacofangs View Post
While Starfleet is based on Earth Naval traditions, it's been centuries, and some things may have changed.

I did not write the dialog there, but your map ALWAYS has cardinal directions. Even in space there is a little N(orth) up arrow on the map. I can only guess that north east was given as it is easily understood by the majority of people, and while it might not make sense on an actual ship, if you were to look at your map, it should be apparent which way was meant.
It's been a while since I played the tutorial and actually read it, but does the text indicate to press "M" to see the map in this dialogue? As a tutorial, a new player won't know it's a map direction unless it's stated somewhere.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 716
# 24
07-25-2012, 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drivecat View Post
I do apologize if this is the wrong panel for this information.

While I am not a navy person, I have been at sea more than I lived my life on land. In the start up mission and tutorial your Commander Davis should be referenced as acting Captain Davis or the XO or the CO depending on the situation. He told my character to go around Northeast of the warp core. Since there is no Northeast in space, I seriously doubt he would say this on a space vessel, much less than anyone would at sea on Earth. Ships do have a inclination to change direction.

As acting Captain, my instructions would be to head fore and starboard around it or simply clockwise. You kids at Cryptic or Perfect World, need to study some nautical phrases about as much as those writer on the shows. I enjoyed watching those shows in the past but they always made mistakes with nautical terminology and ranks. You are best to observe some actual naval footage or visit a naval shipyard.

Keep up the hard work and maybe this will pay off for you, when you get done with college. Then you can get a job working with Cisco Systems, EDS, or Microsoft. The Navy is a good life also, I am a US Merchant Marine myself.
There are certain limitations with this game and a lot of the people that play it. First, a lot of people are not familiar with naval lingo. It seems to often sound "alien" and exotic to most people, and while some may even like the way those terms sound, fewer understand it, and an even smaller portion of those people will make any attempt to learn it. If these forums are any example, then you should know that this game is filled with people who, even while in a "Star Trek" environment, seem inexplicably xenophobic and resistant to adapting or accepting customs or mannerisms different from those they are used to.

Second, is the problem of level design. If you have spent any time looking at any of the maps in-game, or even through Foundry, you would notice that interior spaces are not built with any exterior in mind. They are built as rooms sitting in space, connected by hallway/corridor modules. Even interiors of terrestrial buildings are contrary to what shape their exteriors may look like. As such, there are no "orientations". There is no "forward", "aft", "port", or "starboard" side of ship interiors because our interiors are not built as ships, where you have a hull and then separate the interior space with bulkheads in order to form spaces and corridors; they're just rooms attached by hallway "tubes" floating in limbo. The only interior that almost pulls off the illusion of actually being inside the space you're supposed to be in is the Belfast interior.

(on a side note, I have the distinct feeling this won't change with the Neverwinter Foundry update, and interiors will still be room modules connected by hallway modules instead of getting a general space that is supposed to be the interior of the overall ship/deck/building in which you separate with wall/bulkhead units to form the rooms/corridors)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drogyn1701 View Post
I would expect that for ease of understanding, the Federation would probably have a "Galactic North" and that north = up. That way all their 2D maps would be oriented the same. We do this now. We have generally agreed that north = up. There's really no reason it has be up, as in space, up and down are relative. We could easily put Africa and South America at the top of the map.

3D mapping and course plotting would likely work very differently, though I imagine most human designers would still equate Galactic North with up.

Of course this is a game, so at the end of the day you need directions easily understood by 21st century folks
On Earth, we orient ourselves to the most stable points on the planet: The North and South poles. Anywhere you are on the globe, you can generally get the direction of one of those, know where the opposite is and know that in one direction perpendicular to that line is East, and the other direction is West.

This, however is on an essentially 2D surface plane (even if that plane is wrapped around a sphere).

On a Galactic scale however, we can still do the same thing! Even though the stars are all floating around in 3D space, the entire galaxy spins on an axis, and nearly all the matter spinning around that axis ends up on or near a relatively flat disc we call the "galactic plane". This will be our 2-D surface that we will look at like a top-down map.

"But what will we orient ourselves to? We're all spinning around in this galaxy! Picking one direction as north for the entire galaxy won't work because we're all spinning around the core and our relative directions would be constantly changing! Actual "North" and "South" to the galactic core goes in directions away from the galactic plane, spinning as the galaxy's equator!"

Well, there's one point that's identifiable in the galaxy from pretty much everywhere else in the galaxy: The galactic core. The center from which everything else in the galaxy spins around. And it doesn't change, and our positions to other star systems relative to the galactic core stays fairly stable as we spin around this merry-go-round.

And there we have our first direction! "Coreward", or toward the center of the galaxy! This would make our second direction the opposite of coreward which we can call... "Edgeward"! That's right! toward the edge of the galaxy! This might not be so difficult after all!

But wait, we need two more directions to move along the galactic plane, what could those be? Well, the great thing about being in a spinning galaxy like the Milky Way is that it spins in one direction around the core! We'll call that direction, "Spinward"! And moving against the direction of this galactic spin? "Anti-spinward"!

"What are some examples of how to use these directions?"

I'm glad you asked! Here's some examples:

"Memory Alpha is one sector coreward of Sol"

"The Romulans are losing worlds to the Klingons on their edgeward borders"

"You'll have to travel three sectors spinward to get to Qo'NoS from K-7"

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Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 25
07-25-2012, 03:55 PM
Sure, it could be more accurate, and even canon.

But really, if the game asked you to set your heading for 115.246 mark 92.908, would you even know which way to go right away? And that's assuming you understand what that means in the first place. And how many people do you think would NOT get it, and complain?
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Lieutenant
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Posts: 36
# 26
07-25-2012, 04:58 PM
I am sorry this thread is "technically" my fault. Drivecat is a 68 year old retired Lt. Commander in the US Merchant Marines. He is a neighbor who live a few blocks from me. While I was at his house working on his computer, I introduced him to this game and told him to address any questions he had to this forum.

Quote:
Keep up the hard work and maybe this will pay off for you, when you get done with college. Then you can get a job working with Cisco Systems, EDS, or Microsoft. The Navy is a good life also, I am a US Merchant Marine myself.
I am a college student attending SVSU and he probably assumed this is a college project. I am disappointed that the first few posters didn't seem to pleasant and came out swinging at the old man. He was seriously offering his advice and the very first reply ended with "grow up".

I will have a talk with him, when I get down that way again. He doesn't get out all being disabled. I don't see him that often, but I thought he needed people to talk to and since he was an electrician in the USMM I figure STO might have filled that empty space in his life.
He is a man of his word, I suppose now I have to find him another hobby.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 182
# 27
07-25-2012, 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drivecat View Post
I probably wouldn't have even responded to the comments but that crack about "You'll understand once you get older." was very disrespectful and calling everyone stupid you should be ashamed of yourself. I am as old as I plan to get.

Don't bother coming back at me, just apologize to the others if you wish. I am done here.
Great, it was meant to be disrespectful, did you even read your own post??

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivecat View Post
[...]You kids at Cryptic or Perfect World, need to study some nautical phrases about as much as those writer on the shows [...]

Keep up the hard work and maybe this will pay off for you, when you get done with college. Then you can get a job working with Cisco Systems, EDS, or Microsoft. The Navy is a good life also, I am a US Merchant Marine myself.
So basicly you can insult others, but god forbid the same be done towards thou

As for apologies, none are needed, I truly believe the world is filled with idiots. Just watch tonites evening news, you'll see...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 771
# 28
07-25-2012, 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sameriker View Post
I am disappointed that the first few posters didn't seem to pleasant and came out swinging at the old man. He was seriously offering his advice and the very first reply ended with "grow up".
As evidenced by the post above this one, as a result of his calling the employees at multi-million dollar companies Cryptic and Perfect World 'kids' and suggesting that when they 'get done with college' they can get a job working at some other company insults the developer, and the game itself.

It may have been a misunderstanding as you state, but the people replying have no way of knowing that, or of knowing his age or ability, and had to take his post at face value.

Perhaps when you talk to him, if you want to try to get him to continue playing the game, explain to him how his post sounded insulting to others, even though it wasn't intended to be, and how this game caters to many people of all ages, all over the world, not just America, who may also have different naval traditions.

(True story: At college, a professor once saw me playing STO and asked if it was something I had made. In his defense, I had the UI turned off, so maybe he thought it was just a screensaver or something.)
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Last edited by tangolight; 07-25-2012 at 05:41 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 36
# 29
07-25-2012, 08:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deyvad View Post
Great, it was meant to be disrespectful, did you even read your own post??
Apparently words to live by?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deyvad View Post
As for apologies, none are needed, I truly believe the world is filled with idiots. Just watch tonites evening news, you'll see...
I am sad there are so many cynical people too. I believe the world is filled with some pretty awesome people as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tangolight View Post
It may have been a misunderstanding as you state, but the people replying have no way of knowing that, or of knowing his age or ability, and had to take his post at face value.
I would NEVER have seen this as an insult. "Kids" is an insult? I am 20, think of myself as an adult and handle myself online as an adult. Even when people are being trolls, I try maintain a certain amount of respect in case it is in jest. Maybe a Cryptic or PWE might get offended by this, but I read the whole thread and tacofangs didn't appear offended back on page 2. Why should any player? I have seen messages written on forums and email from people I know are older than myself with typos, lower case, and sounding very much like an 8 year old.

I am not exceptional, so what makes people act like this? A rhetorical question, but apparently I am just another one of the stupid idiots who play this game.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 867
# 30
07-25-2012, 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beezle23 View Post
Cheer up, maybe it means "deasil" and widdershins" will make a comeback.
Wow someone else who knows what those mean.....

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