Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 51
08-07-2012, 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
chose cruisers with 3 tac consoles and stick the best energy damage consoles you can there. the sci odyssey is only tactically potent when your shooting at a target for more then a minute like in a pvp fight
This part isn't true.

The DPS testing I've done had SA come out ahead well under the first 30s.

This is because of what shimmerless posted:


Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Sensor Analysis doesn't add on to energy consoles (these add their damage modifiers additively on the base damage of the weapon in question). It's just a flat multiplicative 33.33% all damage bonus once it reaches max stacks, and it doesn't require max stacks to very rapidly outpace the damage an extra energy console would. This isn't to mention that it boosts all damage: FBP, TBR, TB, Tach Beam, torps, beams, cannons, you name it.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,097
# 52
08-08-2012, 12:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
This part isn't true.

The DPS testing I've done had SA come out ahead well under the first 30s.

This is because of what shimmerless posted:
situationaly it out damages. but a good odyssey captain should be swapping targets often to team mates and throwing heals. if you want to go out of your way to not swap targets and not support and be useless to come out ahead, go for it. i prefer consistent damage that doesn't need to warm up or goes away. and id rather not be the ******* that brings a sci flagship to a duel.
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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 369
# 53
08-08-2012, 12:38 AM
Cruisers can dish out more DPS than an escort if done right. I'm in a Dreadnought and I always get #1 damage output in it when PvP.

So it is truely up to the Captain. But.... Since escorts did get a hull boost...
The Average PvP player

1) Teamwork and timing is #1
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3) You are going to die, just get back up
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,410
# 54
08-08-2012, 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
situationaly it out damages. but a good odyssey captain should be swapping targets often to team mates and throwing heals. if you want to go out of your way to not swap targets and not support and be useless to come out ahead, go for it. i prefer consistent damage that doesn't need to warm up or goes away. and id rather not be the ******* that brings a sci flagship to a duel.
Well, I wouldn't really agree that an Ody should be switching targets (and I think duelling is pretty pointless full stop)... rather, you want to max out that constant focus fire on a single target to make life easier for your team to clean them up. I did consider adding that the Tac Ody might be a little more "consistent", though, but the problem is that the amount of SA stacks needed to outperform the console is way, way lower than I thought it was.

I don't think Cryptic thought the Sci Ody through well at all.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,110
# 55
08-08-2012, 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcommando101 View Post
Cruisers can dish out more DPS than an escort if done right. I'm in a Dreadnought and I always get #1 damage output in it when PvP.

So it is truely up to the Captain. But.... Since escorts did get a hull boost...
first of all, i highly doubt that you come out first "always"...

and, i really have to laugh at the sustained dmg of cruisers in duells...i mean, yeah they can have pretty much the same amount of dmg done...but in a match were only burst is of any importance, this sustained dmg is only worth something if you have 1-2 escorts to take down the weakend prey, because a cruiser with beams can not do that.

atleast that is my experiance in PVP with premade teams or some skilled people on both sides.
i never had a game in which a cruiser had most killing blows.

don't get me wrong, i'm not doubting that you are a capable player with a galaxy-x, i just can't see that the ship is capable of the things you say, regardles of setup.
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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 79
# 56
08-08-2012, 05:52 AM
It's all about the weapon buffs. CRF & CSV are simply miles better then any "beam" buff ability. FAW only works well in a low target environment, and BO drains weapon power too much. The only thing a Cruiser can do to buff damage is 2xDEM 1xAuxTB + Doffs & even then Escorts do it better.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 57
08-08-2012, 06:20 AM
Escorts are by thier nature suppossed to be the easier route to high burst damage at the drawbacks of less survivalbility and less firing arc on thier weapons (cannons) of choice.

Cruisers by thier nature are not. The Cruiser is a machine of damage over time using beams and attrition to wear down an opponnent, unless it can mount cannons and bring them to bear on target as easily as an escort.

CRF/CSV is not more powerful than BFAW or BO but the weapon CRF/CSV modifies in combat (cannons) is by design more damaging in burst than a beam array is in attrition damage. For this burst damage ability cannons suffer from the handicaps of higher drain and smaller firing arcs, meaning an escort must maneuver to bring them to bear on a target.

BFAW may currently be broken as reports of its inaccruacy have been moving around the forums, though that does not discount its effectivness at what BFAW is designed for in combat. Spam Clearing in a near 360 degree arc of fire, not being the equivalent of CSV which while still a tad more powerful has the limitation of a much smaller firing arc to clear spam.

BO is actually meant to be a the Beam array/DBB burst fire mode for combat. It does suffer a massive handicap in Weapon power reduction ( which many think is broken and draing weapon power to too low levels regardless of weapon stacking to higher than 125) for the massive single shot damage output it is capable of in combat.

The roles of the escort and cruiser are clearly designed for different playstyles and only in more hybrid vessels designs do they come close to blurring the differences (yay for player enginuity), meaning the Cruiser is not meant to be the High Burst killer anymore than teh Escort is meant to be the tanking attrittion killer in combat.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 148
# 58
08-08-2012, 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dracounguis View Post
Cruisers seem a bit under dps'd.
I'm in a Sci-Oddy, 6 BAs + 2 Q-torps (or 1 DBB instead of a fore BA sometimes)
Two +26% Phaser Tac Consoles.
Level 6 on all energy weapon skills.
Borg Assimilated Console.
Weapon energy at 118.

So for example, running the Fleet Alert event, players in escorts are popping the enemy frigates in one pass taking all of 3 seconds to kill one. My 'flagship' is taking like 20-30 seconds to kill one. I know I'm not min-maxed but... is it really supposed to take me 10 times as long to kill a piddly little frigate?

One Fleet Alert there was 3 Oddys and while no one was dying, we couldn't beat the timer. These events need to be completable no matter what ship combinations show up in the Pug.

------------------------
Somewhat related note...


I have never been in a successful pug when there's 1-2 Lt. or Lt.Commander ships in the group. They may get boosted to VA in some respects for the fight, but they are STILL not up to it. They lack guns and powers and skill tree advancement. Letting them group with VAs is a bad thing as it stands now. Enemies still too strong for the group being handicapped with a Lt or Lt.Coms! I see a tiny Constitution refit warp in and I just want to leave.



You've also got to take into account that ENERGY damage decreases over range, It takes me in my tac Oddy around 9km out to kill one of those frigates 10-15 secs but point blank like 1-2km it's more like 3-5 seconds.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 79
# 59
08-08-2012, 08:26 AM
Sure, BO & FAW aren't intended to be direct damage boosting ability's (utility/burst), but that's all we have & that's the problem. I don't want something crazy, but it would be nice to have some half way decent beam buffing ability s. Fixing what we have is the first step, and making the new ability's modest while an improvement would be the next. There are other ways to deal with the problem, like lowering the damage drop over range for beams even more, or new types of beam weapons with various trade offs like high damage but zero crit etc.

Lets not forget that Escort survivability is far above where it was at launch. Ability's like TT, ET, ST, RSP,TSS have all seen major changes that have changed the power balance between the classes. Science has seen a never ending stream of nerfs & Eng ability's have lost lost some of their "umph". Then you throw in gear, doffs & power creep. Today Escorts are pretty dam durable with amazing DPS, and lets not even talk about what hybrids are doing to the game.

Cruisers may not be in an overly bad shape, but they do need some love to keep up. Science ships... god I don't even know where to start.

Last edited by r37; 08-08-2012 at 08:52 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 60
08-08-2012, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by r37 View Post
Sure, BO & FAW aren't intended to be direct damage boosting ability's (utility/burst), but that's all we have & that's the problem. I don't want something crazy, but it would be nice to have some half way decent beam buffing ability s. Fixing what we have is the first step, and making the new ability's modest while an improvement would be the next. There are other ways to deal with the problem, like lowering the damage drop over range for beams even more, or new types of beam weapons with various trade offs like high damage but zero crit etc.
Then new Beam Abilities made need to be though of to enhance the use of said weapons.
As to the drop-off in damage of beams, its far less of a drop off for beams (taken from an old test of damage drop-off aver range)

Quote:
Beam Weapons (base white)
Average damage of a phaser beam array at different ranges:

Range (km) Damage
0 144 0do
1 144 0do
2 140 -4do
3 135 -5do
4 128 -7do
5 121 -7do
6 115 -6do
7 109 -6do
8 104 -5do
9 98 -6do
10 93 -5do
As you can see the drop-off range for beams starts at 9km and actually loses very little per KM overall from 2KM to 8KM. This is why the Beam array is more effective for attrition style combat.

Cannons though have a much higher drop-off rate and is why many Escorts must be very close to thier targets to inflict enough damage.
Quote:
Cannon Weapons
Average damage of a dual phaser cannon at different ranges:

Range (km) Damage
0 175 -0do
1 175 -0do
2 175 -0do
3 157 -12do
4 146 -11do
5 128 -14do
6 120 -8do
7 102 -18do
8 92 -10do
9 75 -17do
10 66 -9do
A much higher drop-off rate (and kinda erratic). If you decrease the Drop-off for Beams then cannons will need a similair rewrite and we end up back where we are, just at longer ranges before drop-off occurs.

Quote:
Lets not forget that Escort survivability is far above where it was at launch. Ability's like TT, ET, ST, RSP,TSS have all seen major changes that have changed the power balance between the classes. .
All the those powers effect the Cruisers just as well as they effect the survivability of the Escorts. No class gets special compensation for using them. Infact the only deciding factor that an escort has in combat towards defense is the ability to peak at a higher Bonus Defense for speed than a Cruiser. A difference that is usaully only a factor of 10-15%.

The Cruiser is not in bad shape at all, the Cruiser player just needs to decide which role they are going to play in combat, as they can not be both tank and Damage dealer at the same time without sacrificing some tank to be so or some damage output to be tankier.

Some will say, " But the Escorts can really tank now..." , which is true the tanking ability of the escort rose just as the Cruiser did in combat.
The difference is the Cruiser can roll thier tanking to keep it up indefinatley (if so built) while applying Attrition style damage while the Escort can only tank to a certain point while applying burst damage to destroy its target before its out of tanking ability stops and it must kill its target or flee or die.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
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