Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 91
08-12-2012, 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladith View Post
I have a tank build my job is not to heal others or to bolster them its to beef up MY ship so it repairs faster, its shields stay up and I stay in the fight as long as possible while attacking the biggest enemy on range.....

That all sounds great, but you're missing the most important part of the tank build... holding aggro. Maybe i just misunderstood your post or you simply forgot to mention it, but you must keep in mind that merely being a cruiser does not make the cube concentrate its fire on you.

In fact it may even appear that its attacking you when in fact you're just taking incidental fire from its FAW or other similarly random targeted weapon. You can tell who its really targeting by looking at its target of target.

Last edited by skyranger1414; 08-12-2012 at 10:04 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 92
08-12-2012, 01:37 AM
I started STO with a Kling ENG captain flying cruisers with beam arrays and switched now to Kling TAC captain with cannons, specialized in flying raiders. I retired my ENG captain completly.

My impression is:

1. You generally don't need science and eng captains at all in PvE. Also, in PvP they perform subpar in their abilities compared to TAC captains.

2. Escorts/raider/raptors can take alot of damage if specced and equipped correctly. The gain in speed and turn rate make them mobile while retain good survivability. Cruisers lose alot of speed and turn rate, and also though their survivability is better than escorts they lose to much damage and maneuverability for this advantage.

3. Crew plays alomost no role. You can have a cruiser with 5000 people but not able to overwhelm an escort with 10 crewmen when their shields are down. Also, if your crew dfrops to zero there are virtually no drawbacks.

3. TAC BOFs are mostly straight forward damage, but offer also good defensive abilities and are well balanced in their teirs. There are some powerfull ENG BOFs, as EPTS, Aux2SIF, RSP mostly defense, but offer nearly no offense. I don't want to talk about SCI BOFs, the only usefull SCI power is HE, TSS which is available for most escport to heal them self and in higher teirs GW for PvE (useless in PvP) and VM which is useless in PvE, usefull in PvP, but generally too weak and too easy to counter.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,034
# 93
08-12-2012, 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
I started STO with a Kling ENG captain flying cruisers with beam arrays and switched now to Kling TAC captain with cannons, specialized in flying raiders. I retired my ENG captain completly.

My impression is:

1. You generally don't need science and eng captains at all in PvE. Also, in PvP they perform subpar in their abilities compared to TAC captains.

2. Escorts/raider/raptors can take alot of damage if specced and equipped correctly. The gain in speed and turn rate make them mobile while retain good survivability. Cruisers lose alot of speed and turn rate, and also though their survivability is better than escorts they lose to much damage and maneuverability for this advantage.

3. Crew plays alomost no role. You can have a cruiser with 5000 people but not able to overwhelm an escort with 10 crewmen when their shields are down. Also, if your crew dfrops to zero there are virtually no drawbacks.

3. TAC BOFs are mostly straight forward damage, but offer also good defensive abilities and are well balanced in their teirs. There are some powerfull ENG BOFs, as EPTS, Aux2SIF, RSP mostly defense, but offer nearly no offense. I don't want to talk about SCI BOFs, the only usefull SCI power is HE, TSS which is available for most escport to heal them self and in higher teirs GW for PvE (useless in PvP) and VM which is useless in PvE, usefull in PvP, but generally too weak and too easy to counter.
^^^This, just this
Previously Alendiak
Daizen - Lvl 52 Engineer - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 272
# 94
08-12-2012, 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
.... why would escorts not be filled to the brim with shield emitters and generators?

Also, when taking hits from antimatter warheads i don't think its the ship's mass that prevents it getting instantly vaporized... its probably something like the hull integrity fields or something equally technobabbly. But I can tell you it is NOT the extra mass a cruiser has. They are not throwing snowballs around... its antimatter.

And I would turn your supposition around: with all the space devoted to being multi role where does a cruiser even fit weapons or shield generators? Or at least weapons and shield generators in excess of what an escort would have?

Its a game balance issue folks, you can take lots of damage so you deal less, simple as that. Some expertly piloted escorts seem to tank like nobody's business, but on the flip side some cruisers do damage like there's no tomorrow; but no escort can take damage like a cruiser and no cruiser can deal damage like an escort. With good pilots you can do optionals just as well regardless of the ship's involved.

Might I suggest reading up some of the excellent guides some forumites have posted? I know I've greatly benefited from them

I realize cannon is important to people, but you cannot balance a game around cannon. At least not a game set up like STO is.
"Why would escorts not be filled to the brim with shield emitters and generators?"
They are too SMALL to fit all that stuff. Escorts have very limited available hull space, and last I checked they pack a lot of heavy firepower and engines.

"Why dose mass matter?"
I'm not 100% certain of the size, but judging from pictures I would guess the SIZE of ONE Enterprise E Phaserbeam is a couple of SUV/pickup trucks in diameter. The smaller the target, the more surface area of that target is effected and greater the chance of something important getting wacked.

"Anti Matter Torpedos, Away!"
Shields reduce kinect damage by a drastic amount. Cruisers have the MASS-SIZE-VOLUME-HULLSPACE-ETC to pack powerful shield emitters. Have you ever seen the size of the Deflector generator inside the Enterrpise E-it's nearly as big an escort.

When a Cruiser takes a hit, an area is damage. When an Escort takes a hit, a huge swath of it takes damage. Throw a brick at a window, then throw the same brick at a shot glass. One is damage, the other is destroyed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 102
# 95
08-12-2012, 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
1. You generally don't need science and eng captains at all in PvE. Also, in PvP they perform subpar in their abilities compared to TAC captains.
Not going to disagree with the PvE part, but PvP is a different story. There is a reason that good PvP teams don't run all TACs, and its not because they like to handicap themselves.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 96
08-12-2012, 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oridjerraa View Post
"Why would escorts not be filled to the brim with shield emitters and generators?"
They are too SMALL to fit all that stuff. Escorts have very limited available hull space, and last I checked they pack a lot of heavy firepower and engines.


"Why dose mass matter?"
I'm not 100% certain of the size, but judging from pictures I would guess the SIZE of ONE Enterprise E Phaserbeam is a couple of SUV/pickup trucks in diameter. The smaller the target, the more surface area of that target is effected and greater the chance of something important getting wacked.



"Anti Matter Torpedos, Away!"
Shields reduce kinect damage by a drastic amount. Cruisers have the MASS-SIZE-VOLUME-HULLSPACE-ETC to pack powerful shield emitters. Have you ever seen the size of the Deflector generator inside the Enterrpise E-it's nearly as big an escort.


When a Cruiser takes a hit, an area is damage. When an Escort takes a hit, a huge swath of it takes damage. Throw a brick at a window, then throw the same brick at a shot glass. One is damage, the other is destroyed.

You are assuming shield density is a one to one ratio; maybe cruisers, being so large, are far less efficient in how much shield benefit they get per ounce of power or shield equipment? Or maybe they are so structurally unsound the extra shielding is needed just to keep it from flying apart every time it gets hit?

I don't think you understand what i'm saying about size and mass not being that important, the amount of energy released by an antimatter or similar type of explosive device, once impacting ship hull would instantly destroy any ship in the size ranges seen in STO. Its little different than imagining a battleship getting hit by a small tactical nuclear missile. Both the battleship and the destroyer next to it would be instantly destroyed. Which is why I assume some technobabble reason is why ships can keep on fighting even though they sling antimatter around and unshielded ships can take more than one torpedo or mine hit.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,202
# 97
08-12-2012, 05:23 PM
so what is the most correct answer to balance the game? Nerf cannons? add 2 weapons slots to both cruisers and sci ships? adding a LCDR tac slot to a sci ship? reduce cooldowns on target subsystems?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 98
08-12-2012, 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteguy904 View Post
so what is the most correct answer to balance the game? Nerf cannons? add 2 weapons slots to both cruisers and sci ships? adding a LCDR tac slot to a sci ship? reduce cooldowns on target subsystems?
you did't read the thread, right?
While there are some balance issues, those are very small for ship classes, and bigger but still not gamebreaking for career classes.
What really makes a differnce is player skill ... and you can't balance for that. Or do you want an IQ test on account creation, and if you're above ... say, 110, then you're not allowed to play? ('can't exclude the lower portion, they bring in the money - so the smart ones would have to go )

A bigger problem is: encounter design. The current content can simply be gunned down with a pure dps group. It's ... too easy. BUT: It's not easy enough either. STFs are being failed ... Fleet events are being failed.
Not because of balance issues, or even encounter design ... no, simply because it's still to hard for a group of weapon-power-30-rainbow-cruisers.

Sure, you could buff sci and cruisers, or nerf escorts (or escorts and battlecruiser with a cannon nerf, I'm sure the KDF will LOOOOVE you for that idea ...) - then escorts would be useless in the hand of a good captain and ... ummm ... how's that any better?

No, the truth is really simple: Customization options allow a bad player to simply be just too bad. And the few skill requirements in flying ships actually allow them to be inefficient at being bad. The range between the good and the bad has become too great ... and there's nothing you can do about it that won't result in a stale and boring game. Wouldn't be the first, though.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 321
# 99
08-12-2012, 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteguy904 View Post
so what is the most correct answer to balance the game? Nerf cannons? add 2 weapons slots to both cruisers and sci ships? adding a LCDR tac slot to a sci ship? reduce cooldowns on target subsystems?
Most correct is entirely subjective, but I think a start would be to work on the enemy NPCs, before even contemplating a balance pass on the ships (judging from the comments here the movement based defense stat may need to be looked at, but I haven't done any excessive experimenting with numbers myself, so...).

At the moment, the NPCs lag behind top tier player ships in terms of weapon slots, useful BOff/captain abilities, and can only be made threatening with absurd stat padding, or combinations of abilities that human players cannot use (Tractor + 3 Heavy Plasmas). The combo abilities aren't too bad, but they're kind of fixed. You know it's coming so you give yourself an answer for it, and then there's no real challenge. And there's only so far you can push stat without it just being silly. As it was a few months ago when the Borg one shotted players in STFs whenever the mood took them. The only way around it was to look for blindspots or get out of range.

A start would be to give them more weapon slots on higher level missions and more abilities to use. Overall, the idea would be to give them more sustained DPS, but less burst/spike damage, so top level baddies wouldn't start one-shotting again. Stuff like that is not making a game difficult - it's just making it obnoxious. Upping the sustained DPS would make it harder for Escorts to hang in a fight with them. That way, there's more of a trade off in picking an Escort, you can't just stick in a fight with a Tac Cube or whatever. Then Cruisers would become a more viable option because they could stick in a fight indefinitely with it. Scis debuffing/CC abilities would become more relevant too.

Obviously you can't make them exactly like player ships because the AI can't think at the same level as a human player, but they could be better than they are atm.

Also, I may attract 'learn to play n00b' comments for this, but I'm not the biggest fan of the optional timer system in STFs (for what my word is worth, I have no difficulty in completing missions well within the optional times. I just don't like them). It encourages players to rush, and places even more emphasis on DPS than the missions would have without them. They perhaps could be lengthened as part of an STF or NPC rethink.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 272
# 100
08-12-2012, 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
You are assuming shield density is a one to one ratio; maybe cruisers, being so large, are far less efficient in how much shield benefit they get per ounce of power or shield equipment? Or maybe they are so structurally unsound the extra shielding is needed just to keep it from flying apart every time it gets hit?

I don't think you understand what i'm saying about size and mass not being that important, the amount of energy released by an antimatter or similar type of explosive device, once impacting ship hull would instantly destroy any ship in the size ranges seen in STO. Its little different than imagining a battleship getting hit by a small tactical nuclear missile. Both the battleship and the destroyer next to it would be instantly destroyed. Which is why I assume some technobabble reason is why ships can keep on fighting even though they sling antimatter around and unshielded ships can take more than one torpedo or mine hit.
I don't really care if Lance Armstrong is powering the shields via a pedal wheel and lots of energy drinks.

Escorts tank too well in PVE to the point of being a deterent to players who want to command cruisers.
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